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-   -   Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online? (http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=3972)

tedm 02-05-2002 04:08 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
What is a valid reason? The banks seem to take the attitude that if you made the authorized deposit then you cannot charge back despite fraudulent activity from the casino.

Of course they all ask for these fax forms so in effect what a casino can do is take your deposit and say thanks. MY question(s) would be:

1. Someone once stated that those forms with the signatures put through the scanner and then e-mail are not legally valid. Is this true?

2. What am I supposed to do with respect to the bank? Tell them I don't remember making this deposit?

3. What recourse do I have to the casino to effectively shut them down? Maybe there is no legal recourse but do I act unsurprised when their websites get knocked out or their servers become overloaded. Having the manager boast to me how smart he is - basically telling me flat-out that he screwed me over - creates a permanent grudge.

At this point I am not so much interested in the money I have been screwed out of by his 'cleverness' but getting some/most/all of it back might wipe that smile off his face. We're not even dealing with a huge amount of money in the grand scheme of things.

At this point it is possible that someone will be able to settle the issue in which case it is better if no names are mentioned but I would like some answers to these questions if you can help.

The Original Mary 02-05-2002 04:50 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
Non-delivery of promised goods or services is a valid reason, and that is what you can tell your bank.

That is what chargebacks are for. They are your systemic and legal protection against being ripped off, supported by the credit card industry so that customers will use credit cards for online commerce.

The signed forms have no legal standing, according to Dr.Ho Casino Manager. Considering that the casinos don't ask for originals, and that such forms would easily be forged, I consider this credible.

Besides, who has these supposed forms? The Casino Online? Aren't they out of business? RTG? Why would RTG be trying to protect The Casino Online's credit card processing deposit against chargebacks?

The Original Mary 02-05-2002 05:00 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
From http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/general/creditc.htm

CLAIMS AND DEFENSES

> Under federal and state laws, you have up to one year from the date of the statement (far longer than the 60-day limit for asserting "billing errors") to notify your bank in writing of "claims and defenses". However, unlike billing errors, you must meet four additional conditions:


The disputed amount must be over fifty dollars ($50);


You cannot dispute the charge under "claims and defenses" if you notify your bank after you have already paid off the disputed amount. However, if you have paid off only a portion of the disputed charge, you can still resist payment on the unpaid balance of the disputed charge. For example, if the charge was for $300 and your last payment to your bank was only $50, you can still seek a chargeback for the remaining $250 under the "claims and defenses" category;


The transaction cannot be with a merchant more than 100 miles from your home or outside the state of your residence. For example, let's assume that you travelled to New Orleans from California for a vacation. While there, you purchased an expensive vase using your credit card. The merchant hands you a box which you open upon returning home. Inside the box is confetti, but no vase. If you notify your bank within 60 days, you can qualify for the issuance of a credit from your bank under the "billing errors" basis for chargebacks. However, if you wait beyond the 60-day period to assert a claim and defense against your bank, you would be ineligible for the issuance of a credit. In California and in some other states, transactions on the telephone are considered to take place at your home and not at the merchant's place of business, no matter who placed the call. Similarly, in those states, if you fill out an order form sent to the merchant, and agree to purchase by writing down your credit card account number, the transaction also occurs in your home (federal law states that where the agreement is reached depends on state law);


Before notifying your bank, you must make a good faith effort to obtain a refund or credit from the merchant. A letter, documented telephone call, or signing a notice of rescission (cancellation) would suffice.


Most cancellations are made because of merchant misrepresentations, but in some transactions, the most common being home solicitation consumer sales, the merchant must give you a written notice which you sign, date and return to the merchant within three (3) business days to cancel the transaction. In California and in some other states, sales by telephone are considered home solicitation sales. If the merchant does not give you the necessary notice, you may have even a longer time to cancel. Before notifying the bank, you may wish to send to the merchant a rescission or cancellation notice.

We do not know whether you have a valid "claim and defense". Unfortunately, notwithstanding efforts by this and other law enforcement agencies, and particularly Visa, to ensure that card-issuing banks honor the federal and state rights of cardholders, your letter asserting a "claims and defenses" basis for a chargeback may be handled by a customer service representative who is poorly trained. In some instances, we have heard of denials of valid claims and defenses which otherwise meet all of the requirements on grounds that the letter was not received within 60 days, the merchant has filed for bankruptcy, or the merchant bank refuses to pay back the card-issuing bank because the time limits regulating dealings between the banks under Visa or Mastercard regulations have expired. None of these are proper or legal grounds for denying a valid claim for a chargeback under the "claims and defenses" category. In short, your letter may fall into the hands of an inexperienced customer service employee of the bank who has not been properly trained about "claims and defenses" and will erroneously deny your claim. To give yourself some protection against this happening, you may wish to attach a copy of this letter to the letter you prepare for your bank.

Finally, even if you cannot satisfy either the "billing errors" or "claims and defenses" requirements for chargebacks, you may still wish to write your bank. Some banks will process these requests upon voluntary compliance arrangements they have reached with other banks. In the event your bank denies your request, and you believe that you have satisfied all of the required conditions, please feel free to write to our Public Inquiry Unit at the above address.


tedm 02-05-2002 09:06 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
This is US law Mary and all very good. I also read this. I will contact VISA International tomorrow and see what they have to say about nonsense in Canada.

Dancali 02-05-2002 09:30 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
Thanks Mary. That post is very useful.

Looks like it is pretty hard to charge back. And you'd better not pay your balance off while waiting for credit card refunds or you will be in trouble.

I wonder about this situation:
Say you make two $100 deposits at 2 separate casinos. Then you make a payment to your credit card of $100. So you have a $100 balance. What if you then have to charge back one of the casinos? Would they say you had already paid for it?

Also, I suppose that since the transactions are carried out over your computer at home, they comply with the "within 100 miles" rule. Sound right?

The Original Mary 02-05-2002 10:33 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
A lot appears to be left to the discretion of the credit card issuer, so the lesson there is go ahead and ask for what you want in your letter, you might get it.

I also am assuming that the transaction will be viewed as taking place on one's home computer--analagous to the phone transaction.

Now, if you think about that, the 100 mile rule is kind of silly, because how would you do transactions away from yourself without a computer or phone? By mail, perhaps?

Mail would be covered by postal fraud regulations, etc. so maybe this is a way to keep such disputes from overlapping and buck-passing.


tedm 02-05-2002 11:31 PM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
There actually is a very good Canadian site but I forgot the URL.

I think faxed signatures are legally binding. Scanned documents sent through e-mail are most certainly not binding.

eek 03-05-2002 11:50 AM

Should I do a chargeback against Casino Online?
 
It also depends on how good a customer you are.
I have only chargebacked once and sent my card provider a very pissed off letter telling them to exclude the other party from future deposits ASAP cos they would get other problems there with other (mycard) cardholders.
Its my only complaint after many k's of expenditure and it was cleared up fast.
If you are a serial complainer or havent been with the card for long they may not be so keen to sort out your problem.
They have big backlogs.
I got my chargeback in march and a reply to my 'official complaint' only a few days ago
1/5/2002.
Do it sensibly, and they will treat you sensibly.
I exclude the frauster types from this post.
I am a normal 'like to play online' joe and only get angry after months of bull.
I save the angry bit for my cc provider and talk very nicely to the third party, while being politely insistent.
Also, now the OPA is truly active it gives you another avenue before applying the ultimate sanction.

eek


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