Failure to pay a winner of $8000.

This casino has been added to the not recommended list for not paying and lying to me about abiding BY the OPA's ruling in this casino.

Check the OPA website front page.
All emails will be posted later tonight but we wanted to give everyone a heads up on this casino

STAY AWAY ,,, STAY FAR AWAY.
OK, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

[This message has been edited by Steve Adkins (edited 08-15-2001).]

8GRAND!!!!!!
now thats some serious sh$%#

If they wanted to ban him, they should have paid him his winnings first and not ban him after he'd won and refuse to pay. If he had lost, I doubt they would have had a problem taking his money.

I am going to wait until I read the text of the correspondance until I comment. I do not think it would be prudent to do so before both parties have had a voice in this matter.

Part one of this story now posted on front page of OPA.

Stay tuned for part two and the $8000 they flat out lied to the OPA about
http://www.onlineplayersassociation.com

The full story about Golden Comps is now posted front page of the OPA http://www.onlineplayersassociation.com

Comments:

1.) The only way Mr. Jergen's knew that the victim was playing at two sites at the same time was by trading of private information. I ask, who is really breaking the rules here?

2.) What is wrong with playing at two different sites at the same time? How does Mr Jergens know that the victim wasn't just playing two machines at once (much like players do in a real casino)?

3.) Golden Comps' whole arguement turns on whether the victim broke the rules by letting his wife play on his Golden Comps account. But there is no proof of this. Mr. Jergens is only speculating that the victim's wife may have played at another casino while the victim was playing at Golden Comps. Again, he has no proof, and if he did, what does this have to do with the victim's Golden Comps account.

4.) What was the other casino that the victim was playing at while playing at his GC account? How did this casino end up being matched with Golden Comps? Was it another RTG site?

Golden Comps should have paid the guy/victim. Then if they wanted to refuse his action, so be it. The bottom line is the victim won the money fair and square: he didn't cheat and he didn't play on mulutiple accounts at the site. Furthermore, from the information given by Golden Comps, he gave plenty of action, so bonus abuse shouldn't be an issue.


Dirk

The player did break the rules by playing at 2 sites at the same time. It is clearly stated in the terms/conditions that this is unacceptable. I don't believe Jergens invaded anyones privacy to find this out.
It is clear RTG shares this information with all other RTG casinos if an audit is failed.
Golden Comps should NOT be blacklisted for failing to pay this player. The casino is simply following its own rules. However,
Jergens NEVER SENT ANY PROOF to the OPA of this violation. If Jergens was smart, he would have asked RTG to release an audit trail from both sites, or simply time/date info of each play session, and the ones that intertwined.

If Jergens were smart, he would have payed the player anyway for 2 reasons:

1) He gave partial indication to the OPA that he would accept thier ruling.
2) Anyone with an IQ above room temperature can see that Jergens is using this security violation as AN EXCUSE to get out of paying.
Even if Jergens is perfectly within his rights NOT TO PAY, he is basing his decision on a technicality in the rules. In otherwords, the punishment does NOT FIT THE crime. Seizing 8000 from a player based on a technicality like this is ridiculous. He should have simply banned the player, and payed him.

Nevertheless, the rules are the rules, and the player is guilty of a security violation.

By using the Games software, Players agree to be bound by the following:

1. Player is the age of legal majority in the jurisdiction in which Player resides.

2. Player understands that Player may play games free or for money. Player does not find the Game of the Web site to be offensive, objectionable, unfair, nor indecent.

3. Player shall hold the Company, its employees, officers, directors, licensees, distributors, wholesalers, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising, promotion or other agencies, media partners, agents and retailers harmless and blameless, and shall fully indemnify the same from any and all costs, expenses, liabilities and damages whatsoever that may arise as a result of Player's; (i) entry, use, or reuse of the Web site, (ii) use of any materials at the Web site, (iii) entry, use, or reuse of the Casino Server, (iv) participation in the Game, or, (v) the acceptance of any Prize.

4. Player shall periodically review at a rate not less than once monthly these Terms and Conditions posted at this Web site.

5. Player shall not participate in the Games, open, use or reuse an account, enter the Web site, or the Casino, nor accept any Prize if Player does not fully understand, agree to, become a party to, and shall abide by, without exception, all rules, regulations, terms and conditions contained herein and as such rules, regulations, terms and conditions may change periodically. See #10 for further comments.

6. Members are solely responsible for their account transactions and should keep their account information confidential. Should a member give away, share or lose his account number and/or password Golden Comps Casino.com will not be held liable for any claims regarding that account.

7. Personal identity and details of all members will remain confidential. Golden Comps Casino.com will not report wagering information on behalf of any member.

8. Golden Comps Casino.com reserves the right to cancel your membership at any time without notice. Any balance in your account will be immediately credited back to your credit card or sent to you by check. In addition, Golden Comps Casino.com reserves the right, in it’s total discretion, to void any winnings and withhold any balance in your Casino account under any of the following circumstances.

If the name on your Casino account does not match the name on the credit card(s) used to deposit money into the account.
If you provide false and or misleading information used to open your Casino account.
If you are not of legal age in the jurisdiction where you reside.
If you reside in a jurisdiction, where law prohibits the use and participation of such games.
If you have allowed or permitted (purposely or not) another party to play on your Casino account.
If you have reversed or charged back any of your purchases made with your credit card(s) on your Casino account.
If you are found cheating or if it is determined by Golden Comps Casino.com that you have used a system or machine, be, it an additional computer, additional software or otherwise used to circumvent the natural randomness of our systems.
9. Before any withdrawal totaling more than $500. U.S. Dollars is authorized, a fax verification form must be properly printed, clearly filled out, and faxed back to Golden Comps Casino.com before any monies will be sent.

10. Golden Comps Casino.com reserves the right to amend these Terms and Conditions at any time without notice to you. Such amendments will become effective immediately upon being listed under the “ Terms and Conditions’ section of Golden Comps casino.com website. It is solely your responsibility to review the Terms and Conditions no less than once monthly.

11. All rules and regulations contained herein represent the complete and final agreement between you and Golden Comps Casino.com and supersede any and all prior agreements. This agreement shall also be deemed an exclusive agreement between you and Golden Comps Casino.com.

So where it is listed that you can't play at two different casinos at the same time? I have done that before? Jergens is an Class One ASS HO+E just as I had posted in the other threads about this. He is a thief also. Nothing but a low life criminal. Sit back Jergens and enjoy the ride.. you haven't seen anything yet.. just wait till you see what's coming..

The player did break the rules by playing at 2 sites at the same time. It is clearly stated in the terms/conditions that this is unacceptable.

Huh?? Sorry Dave, but as Don has pointed out, you are very wrong about this. Nowhere in Golden Comps’ Terms and Conditions does it state that playing on two separate machines at two different sites is a problem. Where did you get this information? Did you even read their T&C’s before you made your post above?

However the Terms and Conditions do state that Golden Comps may void a player’s winnings if they determine you are found cheating or if it is determined by Golden Comps Casino.com that you have used a system or machine, be, it an additional computer, additional software or otherwise, to circumvent the natural randomness of our systems..

In other words, using an additional machine or computer to “circumvent the natural randomness of our systems” is against the rules. Of course. No argument about that one. But playing at two different casinos on two different computers does not circumvent the natural randomness of any game. You know that, and Golden Comps knows that. By this logic, playing two slot machines side by side, circumvents the “natural randomness of the game”. Hogwash!

Again the only rule that appears to be broken is Golden Comp’s breach of player confidentially. From their own Terms and Conditions:

Personal identity and details of all members will remain confidential. Golden Comps Casino.com will not report wagering information on behalf of any member.

In addition, the website states: Giving you the feel of a real casino, while safeguarding your personal information is a round-the-clock task that we take very seriously..

Well I guess they don’t take safeguarding your personal information all that seriously.

But according to you, it’s ok to share private information with other RTG sites? Sorry, but I don’t think so. And why would Golden Comps start to compare notes on the victim with other casinos? Was it because he was winning?

From this episode, it appears that if you happen to win at Golden Comps, they will go out of their way to find reasons not to pay. If that’s how they want to run their business, so be it, but before a potential customer makes a deposit, they need to understand this is how Golden Comps operates.

Dirk


[This message has been edited by Dirk_Dangerous (edited 08-18-2001).]

"If you have allowed or permitted (purposely or not) another party to play on your Casino account."

YES, I read the T&C and to me this is clear as day. The player was playing one account, while his wife was playing the other. Without a doubt a security violation.

Jergens is well within his rights under the rules to deny payment. It does not make good business sense, as he will lose a lot of good customers over this. But from a legal standpoint, I believe Jergens has proven his case.

Would I ever play at his casino. HELL NO!
As I said, there's no question in my mind that he used this as an EXCUSE to get out of paying a legit winner.

But its a valid excuse.

I still think there's a chance he may do the honorable thing and pay up. I think everyone should email him and tell him to do the smart thing.

I agree with Dirk's very accurate assessment of this situation. The only rules which were broken here were privacy rules by Golden Comps and whichever other casino is involved.

Jergens does not address that issue, and like Dirk I believe that this issue turnms on the fact that TWO different and distinct casinos are involved here - this is not simply a player allowing someone to use his account at a single casino.

Pay up fair and square, Golden Comps - you owe this player.

They broke their own damn rules by sharing wagering information about this player.

If he was playing at golden comps and his wife was playing somewhere else, how does that voilate casino comps rules?

Just a scam casino thats all.

The player was playing one account, while his wife was playing the other. Without a doubt a security violation.

I don't think you understand the allegations being made by Golden Comps. Do you understand that the victim was playing at Golden Comps, while it is alleged that his wife was playing at a different casino and using a different computer.

What part of Golden Comps' T&C's state that a wife and a husband cannot play on different accounts at seperate casinos? There is no such rule, so it is not a "security violation".

Furthermore, there is no concret proof that is was the victim's wife playing on the victim's account on a different computer at a casino other than Golden Comps. It is possible that the victim was playing at two seperate casinos simultaneously using two seperate computers. Players in land based casinos do this all the time.

Moreover, this has nothing to do with Golden Comps. The victim was playing at Golden Comps not his wife. Golden Comps has no proof that the victim's wife was playing on the victim's account at Golden Comps.

Golden Comps makes the assumption that since the wife may have played at another casino using the victim's account, that the wife was probably doing the same thing at Golden Comps. Well assumptions aren't good enough to take someone's winnings.

If there were proof that the victim's wife was playing on his account at Golden Comps, then that would be a violation, but Golden Comps has not provided proof of this.

Golden Comps didn't like the victim's action. Fine, close the victims's account

Golden Comps also felt that the victim's playing habits were odd. Again, fine. But none of this is cause for taking a player's winnings.

For what it's worth, I've reread Mr. Jergen's response to the orginal complaint. He makes a big deal out of the two computer thing and the fact the the victim did not deny that his wife could have possibly played on his account at another casino. It contains quite a bit of twisted logic IMO.

They should have closed his account and paid up. Confiscating winnings for dubious reasons isn't a good way to run a casino. As I said earlier, it makes the casino seem like a place that looks for reasons to not pay it's winners.



[This message has been edited by Dirk_Dangerous (edited 08-19-2001).]

Golden Comps has two sets of rules:

The written rules which the players believe are the valid ones.
And the unwritten rules which Golden Comps follows.

I made a withdrawal by Overnight Express and was charged $51. The rules say $30 but on asking why I got this answer:

Dear ,

The cost of shipping to Denmark has recently increased for us. Our fee of $51 has been in place since the first week of June. Due to our location in Costa Rica, we are unable to use regular mail as there would be no guarantee that you would receive any mail from us at all!! FedEx is the fastest, cheapest, and most secure way for us to deliver winnings to you via check.

I did'nt do more about it knowing that Golden Comps would never pay me anything.

Soon after this the same happened at another RTG casino. Only now the fee was $68 and according to the rules there should be no fee because the withdrawal was for more than $500.
I have posted a complaint at OPA and I'm sure Steve Adkins will manage to get my money. This casino is approved by OPA.

This is just the latest example of scamming players by the sleazoid sites. We need to keep this thread at the top to warn everyone to stay away from this place. I get bonus offers from them daily. The webmasters should refuse their adds.

Some of us already do.

------------------
Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information (http://www.got2bet.com)

DaveR. as pointed out above maybe you didn't understand the allegations. Jergens is saying that this person was playing at Golden Comps while his wife played AT ANOTHER completely DIFFERENT casino, that obiviously shares the same server. Jergens has never said what that other casino was, but does it really matter? What difference does it make?

The player has only one account at Golden Comps and only played on the one account there.

Dave if you misunderstood the allegations you should edit your posts. This is nothing but another sleazebag casino and sleazebag manager, JERGENS, stealing from a player. He is mad because this player won nearly $9,000 and had to look for something, anything to try to deny these winnings so this piece of crap casino doesn't fold.

Bye Bye Jergens,Your history I know your reading this board.

My opinion is definately not the politically correct one! Actually I agree with the OPA 90% of the time, but when I disagree, I call it like I see it, and voice my opinion. I don't give a damn who insults me. I have carefully reseached this prior to speaking out.

Dirk, you say in your earlier post:
"The only way Mr. Jergen's knew that the victim was playing at two sites at the same time was by trading of private information. I ask, who is really breaking the rules here?"

This is absolutely not true. The software provider, Realtime Gaming, has the ability to provide Mr. Jergens with this information without violating anyones confidentiality.
The server is setup in such a way to automatically detect this, and puts a red flag on the account, so as to manually audit it for fraud. I am assuming SEVERAL Realtime Gaming casinos all run from the same server. Noone is trading player info, or giving away anything confidential. The casino is simply using the tools Realtime Gaming makes available for the casino's disposal.

Also, you state that there is no evidence that someone else was using the second computer:

I disagree. The gameplay on each computer OVERLAPPED IN 4 SECOND INTERVALS FOR OVER AN HOUR. I believe it would be very difficult, but not impossible, for one player to accomplish this. The player (Mr. X) ADMITTED allowing another player (HIS WIFE-Mrs. X) to use his account, thereby, VIOLATING GoldenComps rules.

How is Jergens to know WHO IS PLAYING THE GoldenComps account? It coud very well be that Mr. X was playing at the other RTG casino WHILE Mrs. X was playing at Golden Comps. There is simply no way for Mr. Jergens to know. But what is clear is that both RTG casino accounts were under
Mr. X's name and NEITHER account was under Mrs. X's name. She could have setup her OWN casino account at either or both RTG casino if she so desired. But she chose to play under his account. HE GAVE HER HIS USERNAME. HE GAVE HER HIS PASSWORD. HE READILY ADMITTED TO JERGENS THAT HIS WIFE HAD ACCESS.
Jergens is concerned about credit card chargebacks. If Mrs. X were to lose an enormous amount of $$$ under Mr X's account, and Mr. X charges this money back, the casino will be out the $$$. The casino has every right to protect its assetts. Jergens has to be sure the only one who uses the account is the account holder and noone else.

Also, Dirk, you always refer to Mr. X as
THE VICTIM:

He may very well be a victim of a punishment that doesn't fit the crime, but he also broke the rules, and GoldenComps is well within its legal rights to deny payment. It may not be the morally or ethically correct thing to do. But from a legal standpoint, Jergens has, in my mind, provided all the evidence necessary to prove a violation of rule 8E T&C.

DonGambler, I have read and re-read the OPA front page several times, and there is no misunderstanding. I simply disagree with you.
I am not by any means siding with the casino on this matter. Jergens should have done what was morally right and paid Mr. X his $8000. He is using this technicality as an excuse to get out of paying.

However, what I am saying is that the OPA should NOT blacklist GoldenComps based upon this one instance. I can understand the OPA removing GoldenComps from the list of recommended sites. But blacklisting them is simply going too far, STEVE!!

This casino has a much better reputation than the likes of a Golden Palace or Vegas Strip or GSS casinos, for that matter. They have payed legitimate players:

Players that play by their rules.
And as STEVE always says, the casino has the right to make its own rules.



[This message has been edited by Dave R (edited 08-19-2001).]

DaveR.. normally your posts are right on the money but you really have missed the boat with this one. Golden Comps has proven nothing except that someone was playing at Golden Comps and another unknown casino at the same time. There is no violation in that. Golden Comps is assuming that someone played on this players account other then the player. They have no proof of that. The only thing they can prove is that this player was playing at two casinos at once. There is NO RULE VIOLATION in that. NONE. Jergens and Golden Comps are the ones who are breaking the rules.

Do you think Golden Comps would be pressing this if the player had lost? Hell No.. they would encourage more play. This is nothing but another thieving casino, run by another scumbag manager, screwing a player out of money for no legitimate reason whatsoever.

Dave, you are entitled to your opinion,no matter what logic you used to reach it. But I disagree with you on this one... And I think most will.

First of all lets understand that back in March Golden comps was on the recommened list for about three hours. ha ha ha

Thats it.

They were removed because of the crap they pulled with me about the bonus.

Now they are on the not recommened list. Dave I am surprised to see you stick up for a casino that pulls such a thing.....

Well regardless, we have issued a very strong warning against this casino.

Your POV is a little clearer now, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one. However, I think Golden Comps is making a rather large leap of logic with the evidence they have a hand.

Mr. Jergens also implies a robot was being used. For what reason? There are no full-pay games at GC (as far as I know), so why use a robot?

And this robot excuse is very tired IMO.

The server is setup in such a way to automatically detect this


This would make sense, but are you sure the server does this? For example, if I were to play at two RTG sites with both casinos open side by side on my monitor, I could potentially have a problem. Note, I don't do this, but I could see how a player, with two nice bonus offers, would want to play at two casinos at once.

Anyway this subject is getting old. This could have all been avoided if GC has just paid the player and then closed his account.

This casino belongs on the not recommended list for pulling a stunt like this - it is both unfair and disgraceful.

DaveR,

You feel that Golden Comps should not be added to the not recommended list for this stunt.
I would hope that you would agree that they should be added to the not recommended list for numerous other reasons. Such as:

-the OPA bonus problem when the first opened

-most important THE LARGE MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERS SEEM TO WANT THEM ON THE NOT RECOMMENDED LIST! the OPA was formed by the players and if 90% of the members think they are dishonest then they should be on that list.

This may be the first you heard of Golden Comps being a shady operation, but this is not news to other message boards. On another board Golden Comps has already been catagorized with GSS, MagicOasis and other untrustworthy sites for numerous reasons.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. (whatever)

They belong on the not recommended list, period.

[This message has been edited by zrapture (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by zrapture (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by zrapture (edited 08-20-2001).]

Here is a post from our board, regarding this issue;
I realize that Golden Comps 'renigged' on their statement, but I don't blame them after reading all that. They probably expected Steve to conduct a fair and objective investigation, and I can't see that he did that.
And I should state here that I'm not a member of OPA, and never will be.

Here are the holes I see -
1) Date Logic - if you look at just the first couple of paragraphs, one of which is a letter from Rachel, Steve's dates are off from the getgo. And all of the other letters don't even have dates on them? That's the first problem.

2) This gambler appears to be a member of OPA's executive committee. One of their own 'executive' members is accused of cheating, and I can't see that Steve came back with any defenses, only counterattacks. I'm sorry, but "my wife MAY have been 'illegally' playing on my account" wouldn't stand up anywhere as a defense, and is absolutely laughable as an attempted excuse. Nowhere did they come up with a definitive defense.

I have a real problem with the fact that the suspected cheater is one of their 'executive' members, too. Where are their ethics? To me, Steve did a real disservice to OPA with this one. Because it was one of their own executive members, they had a responsibility to ALL their members to objectively investigate and handle this. To serve only one member here, and not all of them, seriously compromised their association.

And what the hell is a lowjack????

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

Slycin,

I believe a "lowjack" is a device planted in car, that sends out a satellite-detected signal for when a car is stolen. It can then be easily located.

DaveR,
As for Golden Comps, I am having a serious problem with their allegations about why they refuse to pay this winner.

The NUMBER ONE obligation of a casino is to PAY ITS WINNERS. Given that, NOT paying a winner has to come with something more than a vague allegation of "the player was playing in two separate casinos at the same time".

Casinos are a consumer-oriented business. It is their obligation to provide the product purchased at EVERY OPPORTUNITY, not to circumvent the spirit of the contract they willingly entered into.

It is not the business of Goldent Comps to "police" the rules of every casino where players may have accounts. Indeed, were that the case, they would be obliged to check with all other internet casinos before allowing players to open an account, to determine where their own rules may come into conflict with the rules of casinos where a player may already have an account.

Given that fact, Golden Comps has no RIGHT to police ANY other casino accounts where a player may play. They have more than enough work taking care of their own business, much less trying to run the busines of some other casino.

As for RTG "automatically" highlighting conflicts when a player is online at two separate casinos at the same time. They may indeed have an IP conflict code written into their program. But I find it extremely hard to believe that they have a code written in that highlights when a player has two separate computers, two separate IP addresses and chooses to use accounts at two separate casinos. Possible, but not probable. This is very different from two players using the same account at the same time, and would involve an extreme amount of work to write such a code, given the unlikelihood of ever having this sort of confilct come into play. They would have had to have this happen fairly often, and suffered some extraordinary losses to have invested the time and money needed to make such a task worthwhile. Something I find very unlikely.

The fact is that Golden Comps has shown BAD FAITH in refusing to honor the terms of the contract they have with this player.

In any case, where are the logs proving the allegations they are making? It is incumbent upon the accuser to prove his accusations. Where is it? Has this player had two separate RTG accounts open and playing at the same time on other occasions? If so, why did you not close this player's account then? Why did you allow him to continue playing until he won a substantial amount, and then close his account. This shows a tacit agreement that this behavior was acceptable, if Golden Comps did not object previously, even though they supposedly had this "conflict" highlighted by their software. There is just too much BS in Golden Comps arguments to be taken seriously.

The recent complaints against several RTG sites recently, regarding the how much they are charging players for checks shows a bad trend. Recently, there was another post about Casino Extreme doing the same thing. Considering how many sites do not charge at all for checks, this trend is very unsettling. One can't argue that all these incidents are separate issues, while at the same time saying that RTG has software that monitors when players use their accounts at separate casinos.

This whole business of separate RTG sites monitoring play at other RTG casinos is quite unsettling. Given the amount of very private information they require from a player, the OPA needs to have a clear picture of which casinos are owned and managed by whom.

It's strange how an OPA action always brings a few anti-OPA posters out taking potshots - usually from an uninformed base and frequently with a hidden agenda or grudge.

Does a player who holds a voluntary office with the OPA have any less rights to fair treatment than another player?

That's not the only thing wrong with this post, which ignores all the other facts in this matter. My best recommendation would be that he or she reads Dirk's very clear and objective assessment earlier in this thread before posting further.

And I hope Steve doesn't go off the deep end - this post is just not worth it.

The NUMBER ONE obligation of a casino is to PAY ITS WINNERS. Given that, NOT paying a winner has to come with something more than a vague allegation of "the player was playing in two separate casinos at the same time".

AS,

your post contained a number of excellent observations about this matter, but I think the above statement sums up the problem as well as any I've read.

If a casino decides to not pay, it needs to provide some type of concrete proof as to why it won't pay. Speculation and half-baked accusations just don't cut it.

It a casino decides to take the route Golden Comps has choosen, then market forces will start to excert an influence, as well they should.

"She could have setup her OWN casino account at either or both RTG casino if she so desired."

Having more than one account per household is against the rules in most casinos and against OPA policy.

"Jergens is concerned about credit card chargebacks. If Mrs. X were to lose an enormous amount of $$$ under Mr X's account, and Mr. X charges this money back, the casino will be out the $$$. The casino has every right to protect its assetts. Jergens has to be sure the only one who uses the account is the account holder and noone else.

RTG casinos have a rule to protect them from such chargbacks. But most of them say that it's up to the account holder to protect their account information. They don't go so far as to forbid authorized play by another party as Golden Comps does. The way the boilerplate clause is worded at other RTG sites is that if someone else plays on the account, too bad, the casino is not responsible. This is a necessary clause to protect the casino. Golden Comps doesn't use the boilerplate clause. There is no need to change it to read that authorized players are not allowed. The standard clause protects the casino from using the 'other player' scam. The Golden Comps clause not only to protect them from the scammers, but to give them a reason to deny legitament winnings.

"The player (Mr. X) ADMITTED allowing another player (HIS WIFE-Mrs. X) to use his account, thereby,VIOLATING GoldenComps rules".

I don't know how many times I said this: No one else ever played at Golden Comps but me. I admitted that we both play at the same time at different casinos. At the time of my phone conversation with Jergins, I said I didn't know if my wife played at Golden Comps. He says that this is what I said in one of his letters to the OPA. Upon checking our play records and asking my wife, it is concluded that she never played there. Jergins along the way has twisted this to his advantage.

"2) This gambler appears to be a member of OPA's executive committee. One of their own 'executive' members is accused of cheating, and I can't see that Steve came back with any defenses, only counterattacks. I'm sorry, but "my wife MAY have been 'illegally' playing on my account" wouldn't stand up anywhere as a defense, and is absolutely laughable as an attempted excuse. Nowhere did they come up with a definitive defense.

Don't confuse cheating with breaking a rule. Cheating is doing something illegal as defined by law. If a casino says that you cannot play craps to quailfy for a bonus and you do so, are you cheating? No your not, but you are breaking the rule and the casino has the right to deny the bonus. Yes, if someone else played on my account at Golden Comps it is breaking their rule. But all that can be proved is that their was play at 2 different casinos at the same time. (I assumed this can be proved). There is no way that anyone can prove who was playing where. Until there is proof that someone else actually played on my account, then innocence has to be presumed. Oh wait, we're dealing with an online casino where you're guity until proven innocent.

There are no hidden agendas here. And the basis for the information was Steve's entire article, read in full.

Our conversation was whether or not to promote Golden Comps on our sites, and this information was quite naturally analyzed.

In *my* personal opinion, there are way too many holes in this story, but I'm not going to argue with so many people that are, for some reason, so emotionally involved in this.

"Abuse under color of authority" is a term you should all become aware of, though.

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

What rule did he violate? I still don't get it? The way I understand it is Golden Comps is claiming he broke the rules by either:

A) played at two DIFFERENT casinos at the same time...which I don't think is a violation of their terms is it?

B) admitted that his wife may have been playing at another casino on his account... that doesn't mean she was playing on his golden comps account or that she ever did. Is GC trying to say they won't pay because she MIGHT have played on his account? Don't they have to prove that or something.

The casino is looking for any reason not to pay the player. There have been many, many complaints about them elsewhere as well.

I think if someone could satisfactorily explain the identical 4 second intervals, perhaps everything would be different?

And if his wife was indeed sitting there beside him playing, why can't he just say that? His answer of "She *may* have been playing at the same time" is exactly what the problem is. If he doesn't know, how is anyone else supposed to? And if he can't or won't answer the question directly, there IS an issue. (and it's too late now, to answer that question)

It looks to me that rather than answer these questions, the charges by Golden Comps have been answered by counterattacks and accusations.

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-20-2001).]

"I think if someone could satisfactorily explain the identical 4 second intervals,
perhaps everything would be different?"

I don't think anyone has any explaining to do. Golden Comps and Jergens violated their own rules. They have a winner who they are refusing to pay. That is the bottom line here. Like I said before if this person had lost they would be bombarding him with bonus offers trying to get more money out of him. But because he won they don't want to pay. I think Golden Comps is headed right for the trash can. Along with many other RTG casinos. Figures it would be another RTG casino pulling this scam.

Ok, here's another generic question.

If a casino accuses a player of cheating, yet still returns his original deposits, how is that scamming him, or theft? I don't get it.

When a player is caught cheating in a land casino, his original money is NOT returned to him, and he's given the royal boot.

And for the record, I've never had a problem with a RTG casino.

They are not accusing him of cheating. They are accusing him of playing in two seperate casinos, on two seperate accounts, on two separate computers at the same time. That is the only accusation. There is no evidence that anyone but the player himself played at Golden Comps, and that his wife played the other account. I know they are both very fast players. All this violates some rule that Jergens made up in his mind as he tried to find any out not to pay a winner several thousand dollars.

By the way, why isn't the other RTG casino accusing this player of cheating? Anyone ever think of that? Only Golden Comps is accusing because the player won.

[This message has been edited by DONGAMBLER (edited 08-20-2001).]

You're right, they didn't come out and accuse him of cheating.
But they did ask him how this could happen, with "identical 4 second intervals", which no one seems to be able to answer; or if they can, are refusing to.

Is this the first complaint about Golden Comps, anywhere? If there are other complaints, anywhere, I'd be interested in seeing them. I think many other people would be interested in this information, too.

I don't want to be promoting casinos that don't operate fairly, but until I see other information to the contrary, I have no choice but to believe this was an isolated incident. And I'm basing this solely on an objective reading of Steve's article.

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

Look in the other threads for other incidents concerning Golden Comps not paying some winners who they claim are underage, etc. when they are not, and what Jergens says to them and how he treats them. Even if this were an isolated incident, it should be enough for everyone to stay clear of Golden Comps. If anyone has the gull to win big here again I am sure Jergens will come up with some other new and self-serving interpretation of the rules.

""Abuse under color of authority" is a term you should all become aware of, though."

Explain in the context of this affair please, Slycin.

I must weigh in on this.

When I started playing at GC I couldn't win hand at BJ and I was down a whack of cash within a very short period of time.

Paul was very generous in bonuses and special offers in getting me to continue my play at that casino. Normally when I lose a set amount at ANY online casino it is game over for that site unless they can win be back somehow.

He won me back. He is a good marketer. I could have blown another wad but I was lucky. All of a sudden I couldn't lose and I was up huge. I lost back a decent portion of my winnings but I did get paid every red cent of what I was owed.

The final check came last week.

I have read all of these hassles people are having. I do not think that some of Paul's comments are very polite (especially with respect to the 19 year old kid). I also find this whole incident here perplexing and bizarre. Unfortunately this is not an open-shut case in that one party is clearly wrong. The debate in this thread is proof enough of that.

I will start another thread about more thoughts elsewhere.

For now I do not deposit further at GC although I do think well of them.

My speculation ( and to answer Slycin's question ):

1. Mr. X cashes out over $8000 at Golden Comps.

2. Golden Comps discovers that while Mr. X was playing at Golden Comps, he was also playing at another RTG casino. This concurrent play endured for more than an hour and there was a consistent 4 second interval between each bet at either casino. Mr.Jergens thinks Mr. X was trying to cheat some how (maybe timing the RNG?) and asks him why he was playing at 2 casinos at the same time. Mr. X says he doesn't know - maybe his wife was playing at the same time. Mr. Jergens is not satisfied with his answer. He asks, "Do you let your wife play on your Golden Comps account?" And at first, Mr. X answers "maybe", he's not sure.

3. Mr. Jergens, being completely unsatisfied with Mr. X's answers, decides to stretch the rules and concludes that Mr. X has broken the rules by letting someone else play on his casino account. Even though he has no concrete proof that Mr. X's wife has played on his GC account, he takes Mr. X's winnings.


Now, assuming the info. about the 4 second interval is correct, I find it impossible that 2 people were playing at the same time. Was Mr. X trying to cheat? Perhaps, but with all the evidence Mr. Jergens has presented, no rules have been broken.

[This message has been edited by CL (edited 08-20-2001).]

Hey Cin whatever your name is.

I did not post the dates as I saw that did not matter.
The player won the money and should be paid. Oh I bet your site is full of golden comps ads. Wanna bet?

How dare you act like we were somehow dishonest in our evaluation of this problem.
We looked at the facts. Just because Paul said something did not make it true. After all he is a liar.
I am sooo glad your not a member of the OPA and have no plans to be one as you COULD NEVER GET IN. One thing we ask of our members is that they have at least half a brain. So your outa here.......

Hi,

After reading the emails posted on the OPA page, I feel that Golden Comps does have a case based on its rules but that it may be acting in bad faith. However, the OPA has not been particularly convincing either.


Here are the issues as I see it. Did Player X break any Golden Comp rules? If so, then he should not be paid. If not, then he should be. The 2 questions that have to be answered are

1. Did Player X ever admit that his wife or some other person had ever used his Golden Comps casino account to either Golden Comps or the OPA? This play could have been at any time and not just during the time where the 2 computers were used at the same time.

If yes, than this is a clear violation of the posted Golden Comps rules. If not, then Golden Comps is beholden to prove this.


2. Were the hands exactly 4 seconds apart for more than an hour?

If so, use of some kind of robot can be assumed as it is impossible for any human to be so precise. Remember, in a court of law, cases are proved beyond "reasonable doubt" and not all doubt. Use of a robot means that Golden Comps rules were violated. If they were not exactly 4 seconds apart, then Golden Comps has no case with respect to this part of their evidence.


All other issues are peripheral and not a substantive part of the arguments pertinent to the legality of the case. Whether the wife was playing on another computer on another account is inconsequential. If she had ever played on Player X Golden Comps account, the rules were broken. If not, they were not. Whether Golden Comps broke its own rules is another issue altogether and will have its own impact on its reputation. However, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Even if Golden Comps did break its own rules, it does not mean the player is entitled to do so and this is also not pertinent to the case. Lastly, Golden Comps was within their rights to stop their promotion after only 4 hours if they found it too expensive. As long as they played the winners, that is not an issue. However, they should have paid the $50 admission fee to the OPA. This, however, should not be used against them if the OPA, on its part, elects to ignore the fact that Player X is banned in land based casinos. If the background of each party is considered in this deliberation, both have to be considered. If not, then it has to be ignored in both cases. You cannot have one standard for one party and another standard for the other.

This case is a watershed case as it involves an OPA committee member and as such, it is incumbent on the OPA to be totally impartial and in fact, bend over backwards to examine the arguments carefully and rebut them in a logical and coherent fashion if necessary in order to maintain its credibility and impartiality. I am an OPA fan and think that they have done wonders for the online gaming community. This case should be handled with care.

Best to settle it openly on Casino Gazette with the manager from Golden Comps explaining his position directly to everyone and Steve Adkins.

[This message has been edited by Casino Guru (edited 08-20-2001).]

Unfortunately, Steves post above speaks volumes about his credibility and feelings to people who do not agree with every word that he bestows and lack of a neutral position in this from the start. He has now appeared to make it a badge of honor NOT to be a member of OPA.

Steve a portal is a portal whether it be ad driven as most or ego driven as the OPA appears to be.

You know you guys act like we did not look at all the facts. And we did. We took our time with this complaint and went over everything about it.

If the player broke a rule then I will be the first person to say he should not be paid.

but for the casino to break on of their own privacy rules? I guess that is ok right?

Everyone on the committee carefully went over this complaint very carefully before any ruling was made. Why do you find that so hard to believe?

So anyway back to whatever it is you do. AT least the OPA has the balls to stick up for players when they are in the right. Cant say the same for some of the others.

The casino cannot and did not prove that his wife was playing in the casino ... Case closed.

If you want to go play there, go ahead. Nobody cares.

The OPA does not have to prove our case. That is not our job. We look at the facts, not the he said she said crap. But the facts. Based upon those facts we make a decision.

The player should be paid.

Oh and 99 members. I AM SO IMPRESSED. GEE CANT YOU GET YOUR MOM TO MAYBE BE THE 100TH MEMBER?

Royal Dragon Casino? OH yes casinoman I am very impressed indeed.

You need to get your facts staight. Again you are shooting your mouth off without checking to see if your brains are loaded. That casino was sold over a year ago. If this is the way you do research, then calling your 'findings' into question is a must.

Guru,

Just a little "nitpicking" on your post. In a criminal case the standard is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and to a moral certainty". However, in a civil case, the standard is "a preponderance of the evidence". This is the standard that would apply in this instance.

Golden Comps has not posted a rule against playing in two casinos at the same time. They cannot prove that anyone other than the player with the account ever played at their casino. There must be some proof, if you are using a legal standard. GC SAYS that there was a "4 second interval", but where are the logs? Provide some documentation. Isn't that simple enough to do, IF YOU HAVE ANY.

And who is the other casino? That is an INTEGRAL part of this whole disagreement. They SAY there is another casino, but never provide ANYTHING to back up this allegation. And that's all it is, an ALLEGATION.

Lots of things are alleged, that turn out not to be true. YOU MUST PROVE allegations. Perhaps GC is working on the theory that if you say it often enough, people will believe it.

THE FACT REMAINS THAT HE WON THE MONEY!!!

IT IS GC's RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE HE BROKE A RULE!! PLAYING ON TWO ACCOUNTS AT SEPARATE CASINOS IS NOT AGAINST THEIR RULES AS POSTED!!

Oh excuse me there casinoman. I was just looking at your spam. I guess it is outdated spam huh?

http://www.casinogambler.net

That is you isnt it casinoman?

Your spam says it is

lets see what casinos you think are good

Oh yes

Windows Casino
Magic Oasis Casino
Sci-Fi

yep we can see your on the ball there casinoman.

All bad casinos with bad reputations. And you say they are player rated? Yep, your creditability is good here... No question about that.


Oh and oh my a great big Golden Comps banner ad on your page.

Off you go.. Spamboy
35 posts in your forum? ha ha ha ha That should tell everyone something

Well! Steve Adkins...I thought as a newcomer that this was a forum for discussion not a venue for personal attacks on people placing posts.

I am a member of the GPWA and I'm sure someones Mom will volunteer to be member 100!

The GPWA provides information by portal webmasters for webmasters and a sense of community in a fairly lonely occupation.

Slycin56 wrote:

But they did ask him how this could happen, with "identical 4 second intervals", which no one seems to be able to answer; or if they can, are refusing to.

Probably no one is answering as it’s just about irrelevant to the specific case of whether the victim did anything wrong at Golden Comps.

First of all, I think the “4 second” interval thing is a Golden Comps exaggeration. And as Amateur Sleuth has pointed out, “where are the logs? Provide some documentation. Isn't that simple enough to do,” It’s odd that Golden Comps has failed to provide any concrete proof of this.

Moreover, even if Golden Comps did provide logs proving the 4-second interval allegation, it doesn’t really prove any wrongdoing. We all know a fast and good VP player can play very quickly, especially with Real Time Gaming software. SlyCin, I'm sure you know this better than most gamblers.

My take is that the victim was playing at GC. At the same time, the victim or his wife was also playing at mystery Casino X. Both played fast, and both are good VP players. Hence, their bets were made within seconds of each other.

But so what? None of this proves that the victim broke any of Golden Comps rules.

Question: Did the victim break the rules and allow his wife to play on his Golden Comps account?

Answer; there is no proof of this.

Question: Did the victim use a device or computer to change the natural odds of the games at Golden Palace?

Answer; there is no proof of this.

Simply put: The victim won, and Golden Comps should pay. After all, they are in the gambling business, and that entails paying your players when they win.


[This message has been edited by Dirk_Dangerous (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dirk_Dangerous (edited 08-20-2001).]

I do want to add one other thing. Like Golden Comps, I find the victim’s playing habits a bit odd. But you know what, it’s not my business how this guy plays. Bottom line is that Golden Comps is using “odd playing behavior” as a reason to stiff one of their players.

Golden Comps should have done the stand up thing and told the guy they didn’t like his action and were closing his account and paying what he won.

It was a poor business decision on their part.

Originally posted by slycin56:
I think if someone could satisfactorily explain the identical 4 second intervals, perhaps everything would be different?

And if his wife was indeed sitting there beside him playing, why can't he just say that? His answer of "She *may* have been playing at the same time" is exactly what the problem is. If he doesn't know, how is anyone else supposed to? And if he can't or won't answer the question directly, there IS an issue. (and it's too late now, to answer that question)

It looks to me that rather than answer these questions, the charges by Golden Comps have been answered by counterattacks and accusations.

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-20-2001).]

Listen slycin56 for I hope the last time, I have said many times that my wife and I play at the same time. OK, got it. The answer I game Jergins in our phone conversation that she may have been playing at Golden Comps was because at the time, without looking at our records and talking to my wife, I didn't know. If at that time, I gave a definitive answer, I would have been lying. OK, got it. If you read the posts, you will see I have answered this question before. OK, got it.

As far as the 4 second intervals, I take what Jergins meant was not related to robot play, but to the hands that were occuring at the same time indicating play by 2 different players. There was never any accusation of robot play.

Antoher matter is that if the 2 casinos involved are both RTG, that the simoutaneous play had to happen at least a couple of months ago as my wife has not played at an RTG site in some time.

Here's a question for you guys. If the other player rule is violated, should it void all play at the casino or only for that session? This is like getting a parking ticket and retroactivly getting a ticket for every time you parked in that space in the past or in the future, illegally or not.

Originally posted by slycin56:
Ok, here's another generic question.

If a casino accuses a player of cheating, yet still returns his original deposits, how is that scamming him, or theft? I don't get it.

When a player is caught cheating in a land casino, his original money is NOT returned to him, and he's given the royal boot.

And for the record, I've never had a problem with a RTG casino.

It is theft if the casino doesn't pay the winnings and cannot prove the accusations. Being accused and proven are two different things. A casino, or any enity for that matter, cannot get out of paying just by accusing someone of something. This is why we have courts where evidence of the accusation is presented and either proven or not. And again, slycin56, this incident is not cheating, just breaking a rule. OK, got it. And to add, the rule wasn't broken. (I have to add the statement that the rule wasn't broken because if I don't, sly might very well construe this as an admission of guilt.) Cheating is a serious allegation and if you say that I have cheated and you live in the states, you can expect a call from my attorney.

Money being returned in a land based casino is entirely different that from an online casino. This is because a land based casino never has more money than what you have lost. Your deposit is exchanged for chips which you hold in your hand. Your winnings are in your hand and doesn't sit in a casino account. If you are caught cheating in a land based casino, the casino has the right to get it's money back but not before the case has been proven in a court of law.

Originally posted by Dirk_Dangerous:
I do want to add one other thing. Like Golden Comps, I find the victim’s playing habits a bit odd. But you know what, it’s not my business how this guy plays. Bottom line is that Golden Comps is using “odd playing behavior” as a reason to stiff one of their players.

Golden Comps should have done the stand up thing and told the guy they didn’t like his action and were closing his account and paying what he won.

It was a poor business decision on their part.

What's so odd about a husbund and wife gambling at the same time?

What's so odd about a husbund and wife gambling at the same time?

Hmmm, since you put it that way, nothing ;)

I guess, I was factoring the husband/wife situation in with the "4 second" and "Las Vegas" thing.

None of which is a reason to not pay you. But I don't think it's inconceivable for an online-casino to be concerned as to why you and your wife were intent on getting in so much action.

But again, this is just specualtion on my part, for all I know, you two just like to gamble a lot. Hell, the old ladies at "Our Saviors Cathedral" like to gamble a lot too, and no one gives them any grief.

And I want to state again for the record In my opinion, nothing you or your wife did was cause for withholding your winnings

QUOTE If she had ever played on Player X Golden Comps account, the rules were broken.UNQUOTE

I can't agree with that. And in this case it is irrelevant.

We are debating unproved accusations about a player's behaviour in a particular timeframe.

The burden of proving those accusations rests on the accuser - Golden Comps. So far they have simply made the accusations without producing details of this other mystery casino or proof and said "That's it - you're done and your winnings are forfeit" I don't think that is fair.

I would urge those interested to again read AS and Dirk's posts on the facts surrounding this issue, which IMO accurately sum it up in a clear and unambiguous way.

Steve, can you ever do anything besides blow smoke? I mean, are you ABLE to? If so, please prove it.

You have repeatedly refused to deal with facts - with Golden Comps, your article, your ethics, and this thread. You choose, rather, to personally attack those that DARE express an opinion different from yours. I thought OPA was an association, not a tyranny.

ALL of your letters should have had dates on them, so people could follow the date logic. However, it's much easier to pick and choose what one wants to publish when the dates are left off, isn't it?

And rather than address the 4 second intervals, you chose to counterattack Golden Comps and Paul, on a personal level. In fact, it appears that rather than deal with facts at all, you'd rather attack personally, which makes you nothing more than a bully - something I have no tolerance for.

The more I read of SGBC's postings, the more I, personally, am convinced that he WAS cheating. In order to have had identical 4 second intervals, they would have had to be playing right beside each other, for a prolonged period of time, while coordinating their play movements. Yet he maintains that they MAY have been playing at the same time. What spouse, in their right mind, doesn't know if their spouse was playing beside them? And, I'm sorry, but casinos DO have the right to install security measures to protect themselves. If you don't like, don't cheat.

No one has addressed the lowjack statement, either, reportedly offered by SGBC during a conversation with GC.

And you, Steve, had a fiduciary responsibility to ALL your members to fairly and objectively investigate this, and report those FACTS to them. They have placed their trust in you, by joining the OPA.

Your omission of the dates on the letters, as well as your refusal, and his, to respond to the facts, implies that you are protecting your fellow 'executive' member.

"Abuse of power under color of Authority" - 1) Using one's position of power or authority to commit acts of wrongdoing; 2) Misuse of power or authority to achieve a self-serving goal; or in this case, to cover up the wrongdoings of another person.

Steve, if you can offer facts, please do so. I am quite open to facts, as I'm sure many, many other people here are. Otherwise, you only make yourself look worse, and you're taking OPA down with you.

The OPA *WAS* a good idea.

PS - You should have put your money where your mouth was, when betting me that GC was on my site! They're not on my site - YET. I just signed up with them. So, Mr. Adkins, once again, your assumptions were wrong.

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-21-2001).]

Originally posted by slycin56:

The more I read of SGBC's postings, the more I, personally, am convinced that he WAS cheating. In order to have had identical 4 second intervals, they would have had to be playing right beside each other, for a prolonged period of time, while coordinating their play movements. Yet he maintains that they MAY have been playing at the same time. What spouse, in their right mind, doesn't know if their spouse was playing beside them? And, I'm sorry, but casinos DO have the right to install security measures to protect themselves. If you don't like, don't cheat.

No one has addressed the lowjack statement, either, reportedly offered by SGBC during a conversation with GC.

Slycin,

You are making some HUGE assumptions here.

1. "In order to have had identical 4 second intervals,"

I'm not sure that anyone SHOULD address this "4 second interval". IF they were playing at TWO SEPARATE CASINOS (which has yet to be documented), SBGC was not accused of "robot" play, if that is what you are implying.

2. "they would have had to be playing right beside each other, for a prolonged period of time, while coordinating their play movements."

First, I have computers in separate rooms in my home. My son has a computer in his room. He is 17 now, so I don't always know what he is doing, or where he is surfing at any given time.

This rationale you have devised sounds too far-fetched to be believable. If also contradicts the argument you are making. If this IS what they would have to do to play as Paul describes, it hard to imagine that the events even occured at all.

3. "What spouse, in their right mind, doesn't know if their spouse was playing beside them?"

Of course, you are drawing a conclusion based upon as assumption that is PROBABLY FALSE. It is highly unlikely that SBGC and his wife have his-and-hers computers side-by-side. Perhaps they have a home office, with computers on their desks. Maybe, maybe not. But it is STILL irrelevant. You cannot convict someone, and should not refuse to pay a player's winnings based on such insubstantial reasoning(?). You are willing to give GC the benefit of the doubt. Yet you would deny this to the player. Why is that? DO you have a hidden agenda? Just a thought.

4. "And, I'm sorry, but casinos DO have the right to install security measures to protect themselves. If you don't like, don't cheat."

Casinos absolutely should protect themselves from cheating. They do not have the right to arbitrarily refuse to honor their own written rules, and make up new ones unannounced, simply for the purpose of denying a player's winnings. CASINOS HAVE GIVEN THEMSELVES THE AUTHORITY TO DO THIS VERY THING. NO COURT OF LAW IN THE WORLD WOULD UPHOLD SUCH RULES. NONE!!! In the light of this fact, skepticism has to be applied to an entity which GIVES ITSELF ABSOLUTE POWER.

They have your money. You have NO RECOURSE FROM THEIR DECISION, NOT EVEN THEIR OWN WRITTEN RULES.

Understand this!! GC has no rule against playing in two separate casinos at the same time!!! They CANNOT police the way a player plays his account in ANOTHER casino. THEIR OWN RULES DON'T GIVE THEM THAT AUTHORITY. WHY SHOULD ANYONE ASSUME THAT THEY HAVE THIS AUTHORITY? AS YOU OBVIOUSLY ASSUME THEY DO.

Do you want to give them omnipotence as well? Meaning that they should have control not only of the player's account in their own casino, but the player's accounts all over the net? THERE HAS TO BE A LIMIT TO THEIR AUTHORITY!! WHERE DOES IT END? HOW FAR CAN THEY GO TO DENY PLAYERS THEIR WINNINGS?

Slycin, where does their authority end, if not with the rules they themselves have written?

I also want to voice this opinion here -

I fully support the casinos in their right to use every security measure they deem necessary. I'm not a cheater, nor do I want to be associated with any; whether referred from my site or otherwise.

Golden Comps was entirely within their rights when they questioned SGBC. Their behavior was in direct response to his, and OPA's, answers.

Many people here act as if they have no knowledge of the casino industry.
In Nevada
1) EVERY move you make is watched on a surveillance camera;
2) "Negative" player data is entered into a state-wide database, for every casino to use.

Do you all go screaming to those casinos, too, about 'violation' of your privacy???

AS -
Rather than keep discussing what casinos should or shouldn't do, could someone - Steve, or the protected SBGC - just answer these questions?

Wouldn't that be pretty simple?

I am basing my assumptions entirely on Steve's article. I can guarantee you, that if these are MY assumptions, they are also many other people's assumptions. Perhaps you all need to reread Steve's article.

Everyone on the OPA's side just keeps shouting rhetoric or personal insults here, but no answers, and no facts. This is certainly not helping those of us trying to get to the truth.

But it sure is changing my opinion of the OPA. I was neither here nor there about it, before.

I don't get. Did he win the money or not. Did his wife hit a jackpot while playing on his account? so what. Did he cheat, no one says he did. Has he ever scammed any online joint? no one says he did. Pay him.

Golden comps keeps referring to land based casinos. I get up to take a pee and my kid takes over playing. Who cares. I played a machine for two days and my wife played it while I went to get some smokes and hits the royal. They pay her and I am the butt of the jokes. All my kids play on my comp account, no one complains. it all action and that is what the casinos want to see. they have the percentage. If they guy was pushing the buttons and won PAY HIM.

Wait just a minute.

You keep spouting off about FACTS!!

You keep talking about CHEATERS and DEFENDING CHEATERS!!! Yet at the same time, you talk about how others are defaming you. Where do you get off calling someone a CHEATER without the FACTS you hold so dear.

IT IS GOLDEN COMP CASINOS'S RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE CHEATING!!

IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PLAYER TO PROVE HE IS NOT CHEATING.

Get off your sanctimonious high horse.

If you know so much about gambling, online and off, you know that they are TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES.

As was stated before, land casinos only have money you have already wagered. With online casinos, this is not the case. Land casinos don't necessarily know your name. They know your face. The REVERSE is true with online casinos. They know your name and address and phone number, date of birth, and all about your CC.

The situations are ENTIRELY different. Thus, the rules must differ as well. THERE IS NO CASINO IN THE US THAT OPERATES WITHOUT SOME GOVERNMENT AND JUDICIAL OVERSIGHT, as online casinos do. The land casinos cannot make rules that give the player NO ABILITY TO QUESTION THE OUTCOME OF DECISIONS ABOUT PAYOUT OF WINNINGS. NONE!!!

Someone has to closely scrutinize and question the decisions of online casinos, hold their feet to the fire, because they hold all the power. How else to be sure that casinos do not get away with arbitrarily serving their own interests without regard to written rules, and standards of conduct.

Should no one question or disagree with a casino, simply because they have spoken. I think not. There has to be some sort of oversight. Proof of allegations is MANDATORY, otherwise, WHY NOT JUST HAND OVER YOUR CHECKBOOK AND TELL THEM TO TAKE WHAT THEY WANT? It's the same thing, if you insist that GC is above reproach, and their decisions are not to be questioned.

[This message has been edited by AmateurSleuth (edited 08-21-2001).]

Slycin, I disagree with Steve's blacklist of Golden Comps casino, but you should think twice about bashing the OPA. The OPA has done more to clean up the industry that all of those other so called "watchdog" groups combined. It is now the one year anniversary of the OPA, and Steve Adkins deserves enormous credit for working relentlessly to resolve VALID player disputes. Most of the time I agree with him, and ocasionally I don't, but one thing I know for sure is there is no hidden agenda with him. He simply wants to put some credibility and integrity back into this industry, and rid it of the corruption.

Jergens said he would allow the OPA to mediate this dispute. Then he changed his mind. I don't know if I'd call the guy a liar, but he certainly left himself wide open to personal attacks from Steve by giving the impression he would agree to the OPA's ruling, and then ruling against the player.


[This message has been edited by Dave R (edited 08-21-2001).]

Registrant:
Webtech Internet LTD (GOLDENCOMPSCASINO2-DOM)
35 Barrack Rd.
Belize City, BZ BLZ
BZ

Domain Name: GOLDENCOMPSCASINO.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
Sergens, Paul (PSR407) Paul@IPIMEDIA.COM
Webtech Internet LTD
35 Barrack Rd.
Belize City, BZ BLZ
BZ
212-555-1212

Record last updated on 08-Aug-2001.
Record expires on 02-Mar-2002.
Record created on 02-Mar-2001.
Database last updated on 21-Aug-2001 04:42:00 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.WEB2010.COM 209.235.31.149
NS2.WEB2010.COM 216.157.79.246
NS3.WEB2010.COM 216.157.47.6
NS4.WEB2010.COM 216.157.55.6

___________
Organization:
InterCorp
Paul Jergens
1234 HIPLACE
N.Y., MD 90210
US
Phone: 212-555-1212
Fax..: 212-555-1212
Email: Paul@ipimedia.com

Registrar Name....: Register.com
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: http://www.register.com

Domain Name: IPIMEDIA.COM

Created on..............: Sat, Nov 04, 2000
Expires on..............: Mon, Nov 04, 2002
Record last updated on..: Mon, Mar 12, 2001

Administrative Contact:
InterCorp
Paul Jergens
1234 HIPLACE
N.Y., MD 90210
US
Phone: 212-555-1212
Fax..: 212-555-1212
Email: Paul@ipimedia.com

Technical Contact:
InterCorp
Paul Jergens
1234 HIPLACE
N.Y., MD 90210
US
Phone: 212-555-1212
Fax..: 212-555-1212
Email: Paul@ipimedia.com

Zone Contact:
InterCorp
Paul Jergens
1234 HIPLACE
N.Y., MD 90210
US
Phone: 212-555-1212
Fax..: 212-555-1212
Email: Paul@ipimedia.com

Domain servers in listed order:

NS2.EHOST.COM 209.102.92.58
NS1.EHOST.COM 216


Well, well, well Paul Jergens and Paul Sergens, what a coincidence. Hmmmmm

Who is the liar?

[This message has been edited by AmateurSleuth (edited 08-21-2001).]

I'm not bashing the OPA here. I realize that OPA has done some good things, and that OPA is MORE than its leader.

I'm questioning its leader's latest behavior, and now the behavior of the other members who seem to need to SCREAM their opinions, and personally attack anyone who has an opinion that differs from Steve's.

AS - you're going to give yourself a stroke over this. Why is this issue so emotional for you?

My point in all of this was to raise the questions, in print, that needed to be raised. I accomplished that, and now I'm finished.



------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

Amateur Sleuth,
Phoney address, correct zip code, correct area code phoney # 555-1212 is directory information

This issue is about me, and all the other players who have played at an online casino in the past, and will in the future.

Don't you see that we are all faceless, dollar bills to the people who run these casinos. Faceless dollars who have no power to have any say in whether or not we get paid. It could just as easily be me the next time. And I sure want someone on my side, who will believe me, even when I CAN'T PROVE THAT I DID NOT CHEAT.

If no one says anything, then no one says anything.

Oh, one more thing.

AS - did you read all that registration info? I have no idea what that 2nd registration is for, but all of the info is false on it.

No such address
No such city/state combo
No such zip code in that state - California zip
No such phone number - New York area code

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-21-2001).]

Of course I read it. That's my point exactly. Can you trust the word of a man who won't even tell the truth on a Domain Name Registration?

Ipimedia.com is a real website. The email address is the same as on that website, which is a ridiculous excuse for a site.

And you would take the word of such a man on ANYTHING?

I finally found all these ru

So he registered his *real* information for the casino?

SlyCin,

I really want you to accept my apology for that remark. It was completely out of line.

My point in continuing this discussion is to point out my concerns, not to cast insults at you, or anyone else simply for expressing your opinions.

I do wonder why with all the talk about facts, when some FACTS about the name of the owner of Golden Comps is revealed, it does not seem to strike a chord that the man is a liar. One way or the other he is a liar. Apparently he does not want to be revealed or want anyone to be able to contact him directly.

Is he hiding his identity? Why? An honest, forthright businessman should not have to resort to such conduct, should he?

Yet his word is to be believed, even though he has not bothered to present any FACTS OR PROOF to back up his claims.

Such loyaly is amazing. What is it about what he said or did that compels you to ignore evidence of HIS lies, while believing what he says without evidence?


[This message has been edited by AmateurSleuth (edited 08-21-2001).]

.

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-21-2001).]

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Your about worth a laugh.

You know these so called portals dont give two ****s about the player. Very few of them care where they send traffic as long as the check clears at the end of the month.

I copied EVERY EMAIL BETWEEN THE CASINO AND MYSELF.. Now your calling me a liar?

**** off.

Steve, all you accomplish with your verbal abuse, and avoidance of the issues, is to show your lack of character and intelligence.

And just for the record, there are many of us who care about our players. I have already gone to bat for one of my players, and for some webmasters.

AS - no need to apologize, but thank you.

I have no loyalty to Paul Jergens, Golden Comps, or OPA. I have had no dealings with GC yet, either as a player or an affiliate.

I brought up this issue because, after reading Steve's article - seriously looking to see if his ban had validity - I was left with a lot of questions about many things.

I do believe that OPA has accomplished many good things, but I also believe that they have banned many casinos simply out of spite - because a few have become drunk with power. And this appears to be one of them, particularly since it involves one of OPA's 'executive' members.

As to the difference in the registrations, here's a different point of view. At the GPWA, we verify ownership of every portal, before issuing passwords. In the 3 months since its inception, I've seen many owners use fake names, first names only, and no names at all, so this is not a surprise to me.
My take on this is - when he registered the first site (which I haven't been to) he didn't want his true identity known, and made that very clear with the type of disinformation he listed. However, when he registered the casino, he did, or perhaps was required to. Just a different point of view.

I don't know whether Paul is lying or not, but I do know he had valid questions that were not given valid answers. And I believe Steve's ban is unfounded.

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

Slycin, having read most of your other postings on this MB with respect I'm disappointed in your actions here because I think you are doing exactly what you are accusing the other posters of doing - ignoring the really pertinent facts laid out umpteen times in this thread and allowing yourself to be distracted into a fight with Steve and unfounded assumptions regarding abuse of power and executive protection. And those are some pretty hairy personal allegations that you are making, too.

Hammering the OPA is not the answer to this issue, and referring uncharitably to "some" of the good that organisation has achieved is doing it a disservice when you know very well that few if any other watchdogs have accomplished as much. You say you have gone to bat for one player from your site? OPA has helped hundreds who would have otherwise simply been blown off.

And implying that Adkins is anything less than honest does you no credit either - I think he has proved over and over to be a man of integrity although his approach is definitely abrasive. Maybe he has found that that is what it takes with some of the shysters in this business who run casinos.

Please step back a moment and take your own advice to look at all the facts of the matter, and bear in mind that Golden Comps has remained selectively silent on certain points and has still not produced a shred of evidence to support taking this player's $8 000.


[This message has been edited by Jetset (edited 08-22-2001).]

Steve Adkins is one of the few people to use his real name in every post...I think that says something about the way he operates, whether you agree with him or not!

Steve.. I think you are the most rambunctious person I have ever "met". You aren't worthy of being part of the OPA. Go blow smoke, or whatever you blow, elsewhere.

------------------
Gamblers Quarters (http://casino.expertarena.net/)

I have read this thread cover to cover. I'd like to the see the guy get paid unless the 4 second thing turns out to be a robot and that can in fact be proven. If they have logs showing EXACYLY 4 seconds for even 30 minutes, thats good enough for me. Theres NO Way that is HUMANLY posible. That's all I have to say on that.
Mr. Adkins, what can I say. Pitiful way to talk to a fellow gambler, in fact I can see no justification for addressing ANYBODY in that fashion. This man obviously cares about the industry as a whole. It is crystal clear that he is looking for the truth, be it the player or the casino. He did a pretty good job of controling himself against your vicious and vulgar assaults. There are plenty of money grubin portals out there and there are are plenty that do their best to be responsible.There are plenty just like Winnersonline that list all of them and try to let the players work it out for themselves. Your statements insult a lot of hard working portal owners who play a huge role and provide excellent services for the players both new and existing. This guy is obviously one of the GOOD guys and you have the audacity to put him to shame that way. Sorry, I just lost all the respect you had earned over the last year with me. Anyone with this kind of demeanor is not going to be worthy of the responsibilities that I had expected the O.P.A. to have in the years to come in online gambling.
Sorry, I realize your group has done some good things for the players. For that we all thank you. There is much left to do and I will hope that you are able to rise to those challanges in a professional and respectful mannor in which I am sure your membership would expect.

[This message has been edited by 38Special (edited 08-22-2001).]

Slycin56 :

My hat is off to you for assisting players and webmasters at times when difficulties arise with casinos.

In connexion with this controversy, I was wondering, respectfully ....

IF SBGC had been a regular visitor to your site, signing up at casinos thru your portal - a good customer, what would your decision be if SBGC had approached you to mediate in these exact same circumstances - except that he had signed up to this casino thru your portal having relied on your knowledge and integrity and (implied ?) endorsement of the casino?

Would Paul's decision not to pay be supported by enough evidence and common sense for you to tell the player ... what?

Would the burden of proof be on the accuser or the accused?

this guy is obviously not lying about the 8000 or golden comps would have emailed steve logs right away. When I've asked for logs from a casino they usually email them right back within a few hours.

Quit making personal attacks on each other and stand up for the players. Why stand up for a casino that can't even be accountable and show us some logs.

I can't see any reason why they wouldn't just post the logs...they know the OPA would tar and feather the player and he'd never be seen again.

Why? Because the casino is wrong

I realize my opinion is not a popular one here. I thank those of you here who have defended my right to voice it.

First, let's remember GC did not steal $8,000 from SGBC. They returned all his original deposits of around $4,000(?). They are refusing to pay his winnings, which they believe ill-gained.

I would be interested in seeing the logs, also. But I don't recall seeing Steve ask for the logs in any of his letters to them. It's been a couple of days since I read the article....

It seems to me this would have been the first and most logical step in the resolution of this issue. If he got them, they should have been posted for all to see. And ALL of the communications between GC and OPA should have been posted, complete with dates and times, for all to see and come to their own conclusions.

Any fair-minded, and level-headed person seeking the truth would have done this, and I have done this myself with the issues I've handled.

By publishing only what he CHOSE to publish, it appears he manipulated the information to serve his own purpose.

Steve may have accomplished a lot of things for OPA when it started, but his unprofessional behavior is getting very tiresome, and he is not earning anyone's, the casinos or the players, respect with his profane rantings and attempted intimidation.

All anyone, GC and those of us here, has asked for is a satisfactory and reasonable explanation of the 4 second intervals; but Steve and SGBC have refused to answer this question directly. Why? The 4 second intervals is the true issue here, whether GC came out and said it or not.

(PS - SlyCin56 be a girl! :D My real name is Cindy Carley (posted on the copyright info at my website, and in my Whois data), and if you want to know my other info, Grantt posted my registration elsewhere on this message board for all to see.)

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-22-2001).]

Lets see the logs! Lets see proof that this player was in two accounts at the same time with 4 second intervals. Lets not take the casinos word for it. We already know how they keep their word. Lets see facts. Not something some casino manager says to get out of paying the money.

If this proof was available, then why did they not already submit it? DING DONG PEOPLE.


Your asking us to defend something that has not been proved.

I am not trying to win any popularity contests with anyone. I too call them as I see them.

The nice approach does not work very well.
Sometimes you have to kick them in the ass to get results. And I for one have no problem doing that when it is called for.

If you read the story you will see I was very professional about all of this. Never once got out of line with Paul or the player.

That changed once Mr. Paul lied to me.

Now some of his fans are giving me grief about how I handled this thing? Give me a break.

How about this casino sharing info with another casino. That is against their own rules. But yet nobody says anything about that. What about them agreeing to abide by the OPA ruling? And then backing out? Lets not mention that.

Lets Bash me instead and maybe people will get caught up in the Steve, OPA bashing that we will forget all the facts.. Its all my fault and I will certainly rot in hell for it.

Did you ASK for the logs, Steve, in an attempt to look at this fairly and objectively?

If you did, and you got them, why aren't they posted?

If you did, and were refused, why aren't those letters posted?

And, Steve, I'm not talking about using a 'nice' approach here; I'm talking about using a professional approach. An approach that has been proven by hundreds of years of successful negotiations. And, yes, sometimes it is necessary to take a hard-line approach, but it is NEVER acceptable to use personal insults as a part of that, or to become angry. The minute you become angry, you lose.



[This message has been edited by slycin56 (edited 08-22-2001).]

The casino has logs, even my mom's online flower shop has logs...

------------------
Gamblers Quarters (http://casino.expertarena.net/)

well it all comes down to the logs

the casino knows they're wrong or the logs would have been posted here 4000000 times by now

Burden of proof, folks - it rests with the accuser and the onus was on Golden Comps to produce it. Do not get sidetracked by these attacks on the OPA - look at the FACTS.

Mr. Adkins,

You've insulted the GPWA, and even some
of the portal webmasters that have found
the courage to voice their honest opinions
within this forum. Why attack them?

I just don't understand it. You are a casino
portal webmaster. The OPA may be considered
an "association" at your web site, but you
do offer affiliate links and banner ads for
online casinos at your web site, along with
a newsletter that promotes bonuses for some
of the online casinos that you represent.

I'm glad that your trying to help casino
players fight for their rights. When you
have a very strong opinion regarding a
matter at hand, their are always going to
be people that will disagree with you, and
when some of us do, you should just
respectfully disagree without biting our
heads off, and insulting our integrity.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

I dont think it was I who threw the first stone...

maybe you should reread the posts. Cindy said I was lying about this and just protecting one of our members.

So you guys say what you want about me and the OPA but I am damned if I fight back?

This case raises a lot of interesting issues that deserve their own discussions, and I invite posts on those matters on the OPA forum. I think we can agree that there is a shortage of facts established in this event, and I see much speculation, which we are forced to do in the absence of evidence.

For example:

*The term "precise four second interval" is not used in any correspondence. What is stated is "four second crossover interval".

If the four second value is an average of interval values, that is readily achievable by two video poker players playing simultaneously. I play 600 hands an hour, which averages to ten second intervals;
if there were two of me playng we would have five second intervals.

Requests for clarification of the nature of this simultaneous play were disregarded.

*It has been assumed that the "second casino" is an RTG casino. This has never been explicitly stated and requests for more information about the "second casino" have been disregarded. Not all RTG casinos have the same rules; not all RTG casinos have readily posted rules; non-RTG casinos have widely varying rules. Not knowing the rules of the second casino, it's difficult to determine if they have been broken.

*Nowhere in the casino's rules is it stated that simultaneous play with another casino is a violation. In the absense of knowing the rules of the second casino, this could be taken to absurdity. What if it is a casino that allows two players on one account? Also, where is the manager of this alleged second casino, protecting the integrity of *their* rules?

*Should members of the Executive Commmittee be players? This argument cuts both ways, because players could well argue why should they pay any attention to individuals who do *not* put their own money at risk and do *not* experience all the perils first hand.

*Who should shoulder the burden of proof? The casino made the allegations of "gross security violations" and withheld monies. During the course of the Executive Committees deliberations, the casino represented that they would abide by the OPA's decision. The casino did not respond with requested proofs or clarifications of their statements and the casino has now reneged on the promise. The player in question, an Executive Committee member, was responsive. Hey, we *tried* to do an objective investigation and deliberation, but if one party doesn't respond, that doesn't leave us much to work with.

Steve, without rereading all my posts, I don't believe I ever said you were lying. I'm usually very careful about making outright accusations.

I was questioning your information, and your presentation of it, and you *chose* to interpret that as an accusation. This speaks volumes in itself.

Mary, about time you joined this conversation, whichever side you're on! I don't always agree with you, but I DO respect your knowledge and courage.

I have no problem with OPA's exec members being players, but when an issue like this involves one of them, OPA has an extreme responsibility to objectively investigate and report the facts. ANY organization does, and this is something so fundamental that it shouldn't even have become an issue here. I cannot stress the importance of this enough.

My questions remain the same, unanswered:
Did you ASK for the logs, Steve, in an attempt to look at this fairly and objectively?
If you did, and you got them, why aren't they posted?

If you did, and were refused, why aren't those letters posted?



------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

"...but when an issue like this involves one of them, OPA has an extreme responsibility to objectively investigate and report the facts."

Believe me, we took that into account.

I've been in the Bahamas all week, which is why the message board has been spared my participation!

Why is everybody so concerned about the logs and the 4 second intervals? There does not have to be proof that there was play at 2 different casinos, I admit it. However, I admit that we do play at different casinos at the same time, but not knowing when and where these allegations took place, I of couse cannot admit to the specific play(s) in question. Jergins is saying that there was someone else playing on my account, I say there wasn't. Now the burden of proof is on them to proof that someone else but me was playing at Golden Comps. If the rules were broken at the other casino is irrelevant. Since most other RTG casinos do not forbid other player play, I suspect that they were not.

If you feel the investigation was complete, Mary, then perhaps the reporting of it is what is not.

I believe everyone had a right to see all the facts, reported as they occurred. This means the logs, if you have them, should have been posted; as well as all the letters back and forth, asking for this information, and Paul's refusal to supply it, if that's what occurred. This information would substantially support Steve's ban.

These are are pretty simple questions and requests. Why is the OPA dancing all around answering them?

I'm not sure I agree that it would be right to publicize all the correspondence and play logs; let's discuss this.

One of the reasons casinos and players join the OPA is for confidential mediation services. Who would want to join if all correspondence etc. were to made public in the event of a dispute later?

What Steve posted focuses in the main upon the offer Paul made to abide by the decision of the OPA; and his reversal of that offer after a decision was reached that he did not like. Paul did not make that offer with conditions about the nature and quality of deliberations.

I can tell you that I have not seen any logs of player activity, or supporting statements from staff, security reports, nothing like that. Only Paul's own account in email.

This was insufficient evidence and argumentation for me to have voted on behalf of the casino. Paul did not even supply a full copy of the rules of his casino. I went to the casino's site and reposted the rules for our discussions in committee.

There are now two events in question for the OPA to consider in "blacklisting" the casino: one is the treatment of the player in the origination of the dispute, and the second is the treatment of the OPA in the mediation of the dispute.

Frankly, the casino did not trust the OPA enough to provide proof of the casino's claims, to the extent of refusing to disclose the identity of the second casino or details of irregularities of the play.

Considering that the management may have been wary because of the identity of the player as a recused committee member, that is a not unreasonable caution to have--except that it was the casino's offer to abide by a decision made upon the information limited by the casino itself in the collecting. A generous offer, summarily and curiously rescinded.

Now, that's just perverse business practice at this point--what other outcome could there be but to insult those of us who did spend time giving this consideration? And that lit the fire under Steve's tuchas.

Thank you, Mary, for finally giving us a logical and well-written explanation as to OPA's action here.

Even though I don't agree with all the actions taken, I at least understand OPA's motivations now.

Thank you for taking the time to explain them to us, and for being so professional about it. :)

------------------
SlyCin56
Video Poker Junkie.com (http://videopokerjunkie.com)
Gambling Portal Webmasters Association (http://pub66.ezboard.com/bgamblingportalwebmastersassociation)

Mr Jergens now has a second casino under management, 5 Roses Casino. I did not realize it was his until I was ready to cash in. Since I only won a little over $200 and requested withdrawal by PayPal, I hope to get paid without too much hassle.

Registrant:
webstormmedia
127 St-Pierre Suite 300
Montreal, Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

Domain Name: 5ROSESCASINO.COM

Administrative Contact:
Garzon, Ilan (ILGA5938) admin@webstormmedia.com
127 St-Pierre #300
Montreal , Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

Technical Contact:
Garzon, Ilan (ILGA8111) admin@webstormmedia.com
127 St-Pierre #300
Montreal , Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

Billing Contact:
Garzon, Ilan (ILGA1378) admin@webstormmedia.com
127 St-Pierre #300
Montreal , Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

Registration Date: 20-Jul-2001 16:55:14
Expiration Date: 20-Jul-2002 13:55:12

Domain servers in listed order:

NS141.PAIR.COM 209.68.1.170
NS00.NS0.COM 216.92.60.60
--------
Registrant:
Webtech Internet LTD (GOLDENCOMPSCASINO2-DOM)
35 Barrack Rd.
Belize City, BZ BLZ
BZ

Domain Name: GOLDENCOMPSCASINO.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
Sergens, Paul (PSR407) Paul@IPIMEDIA.COM
Webtech Internet LTD
35 Barrack Rd.
Belize City, BZ BLZ
BZ
212-555-1212

Record last updated on 08-Aug-2001.
Record expires on 02-Mar-2002.
Record created on 02-Mar-2001.
Database last updated on 29-Aug-2001 00:07:00 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.WEB2010.COM 209.235.31.149
NS2.WEB2010.COM 216.157.79.246
NS3.WEB2010.COM 216.157.47.6
NS4.WEB2010.COM 216.157.55.6

Sleuth - you checked the wrong domain. The new casino is fiverosecasino.com
It seems this Ilan Garzon guy registers every domain that could be confused with fiverosecasino.com

I made a post at Fatboner the other day - not very original - but I'll paste it in. Afterall it was in this forum I learned how useful "whois" is.

"A little late for this - but still wanted to share. Whenever I receive an offer from a brandnew casino I do a 'whois" on the domain. Saturday I received the $125 matchoffer via gamblink.com

Fiverosecasino.com returns this:

Administrative Contact:
Jergens, Paul (PAUJER7) paul@ipimedia.com
35 Barack Rd.
Belize City, Belize na
Belize
(PH) 1-866-679-0874 (FAX) 1-866-266-6152

The name certainly rang a bell. Goldencompscasino.com returns this:

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
Sergens, Paul (PSR407) Paul@IPIMEDIA.COM
Webtech Internet LTD
35 Barrack Rd.
Belize City, BZ BLZ
BZ
212-555-1212

Since Mr. Sergens and Mr. Jergens share emailaddress and streetaddress I would expect them to be closely related. The domain fiverosecasino.com is registered on August 15th - which happens to be the day OPA posted a warning against Golden Comps.

While doing this post - I did the check again and misspelled the url fiveroseScasino.com. It returned this:

Administrative Contact:
Garzon, Ilan (ILGA5938) admin@webstormmedia.com
127 St-Pierre #300
Montreal , Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

I got confused and did a check on goldencomps.com (which also is wrong - missed 'casino') and got this:

Administrative Contact:
Garzon, Ilan (ILGA5938) admin@webstormmedia.com
127 St-Pierre #300
Montreal , Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

It seems Mr. Garzon is handling all the misspells. If you're wondering who he is - gamblink.com returns this:

Administrative Contact:
Garzon, Ilan (ILGA5938) admin@webstormmedia.com
127 St-Pierre #300
Montreal , Quebec H2Y2L6
Canada
(PH) 514-392-7722 (FAX) 514-875-6138

As mentioned above - it was from gamblink.com I received the offer from Five Roses Casino. Now that's funny!!"

At the very LEAST - Webstorm Media is the marketing agency for Golden Comps and Five Roses.

There DOES exist a possibility that they are part-owners in this operation as well.

No one is wrong here - they are all important clues.

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Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information (http://www.got2bet.com)

WebstormMedia.com in Montreal owns the Wizard of Odds site. The wizard still provides the write ups on gaming for the site/newsletter.

Just FYI.

I am not nearly the detective that Mary, A/S, and some of you others are.

The CSR from 5 Roses told me they also owned Golden Comps. Then I got a welcome letter from Paul Jergens. That was pretty solid proof for me. Also, I just received the same offer I played for 5 Roses from The Wizard of Odds.

Although I was personally paid promptly by Golden Comps, I would not have played at their sister site while they have a major unresolved dispute. There needs to be a realization for casino operators that we will stay away in droves if they fail to pay other players. If they cheat one player it is only a matter of when, not if, they will cheat again.

Go here:
http://webstormmedia.com/html/projects.html

and you will see that Webstorm Media owns the following sites:

Gamblink.com
Gambleup.com
Gamblingtime.com
theWizardofOdds.com
Hugeprize.com
Casinopopup.com

If indeed, Webstorm and Golden Comps are related, that puts a very interesting spin on things.