Question for Max,
As a casino operator, when a player makes a claim against a casino on the forum. What if anything can the casino use to prove its reasons that would not be construed as posting confidential information? IE multiple accounts, charge backs, e-mail/ chat transcripts. I have noticed a lot of players feel free posting false information to get the board riled up, but the casino has their hands tied in trying to answer.

This raises a good point because there are undoubtedly a significant number of fraudulent players who use the leading message boards to gather advantages that are not due.

Other sites have developed a system whereby the posters agree on one trusted individual (like Max here) who then liaises privately with the casino, examines the evidence (if necessary under a blanket NDA) and then confirms to the members the rogueness of the player (or not) before banning him or her for life.

I think it's important to weed out these crooks who harm the interests of players as well as the industry, and this is one way of confirming a casino's allegations - and it requires them to provide evidence instead of simply making a statement on a message board.

So Max are you up to the task? Or know of other options.

Well if Max is taking too long for you VTED then i'll fire away until Max finishes with his sunday Boxing day off..

If you can't answer your own question from your privacy terms VTED then what shall we do with you? (happy reading this lot) These are your terms V Ted in full. Source (http://www.thevirtualcasino.com/privacy.shtml)

Virtual Casino takes your privacy seriously. Please read the following to learn more about our privacy policy.

What This Privacy Policy Covers
This policy covers how Virtual Casino treats personal information that Virtual Casino collects and receives, including information related to your past use of Virtual Casino products and services. Personal information is information about you that is personally identifiable like your name, address, email address, or phone number, and that is not otherwise publicly available. This policy does not apply to the practices of companies that Virtual Casino does not own or control, or to people that Virtual Casino does not employ or manage.

Information Collection and Use

General:
Virtual Casino collects personal information when you register with Virtual Casino, when you use Virtual Casino products or services, when you visit Virtual Casino pages or the pages of certain Virtual Casino partners, and when you enter promotions or sweepstakes. Virtual Casino may combine information about you that we have with information we obtain from business partners or other companies.

When you register we ask for information such as your name, email address, birth date, gender, zip code, occupation, industry, and personal interests. For some financial products and services we may also ask for your address, Social Security number, and information about your assets. Once you register with Virtual Casino and sign in to our services, you are not anonymous to us. Virtual Casino collects information about your transactions with us and with some of our business partners, including information about your use of financial products and services that we offer. Virtual Casino automatically receives and records information on our server logs from your browser, including your IP address, Virtual Casino cookie information, and the page you request.

Virtual Casino uses information for the following general purposes: to customize the advertising and content you see, fulfill your requests for products and services, improve our services, contact you, conduct research, and provide anonymous reporting for internal and external clients.

Children:
Any attempt of registration by someone under the age of 18 is disallowed.

Information Sharing and Disclosure:
Virtual Casino does not rent, sell, or share personal information about you with other people or nonaffiliated companies except to provide products or services you've requested, when we have your permission, or under the following circumstances:

We provide the information to trusted partners who work on behalf of or with Virtual Casino under confidentiality agreements. These companies may use your personal information to help Virtual Casino communicate with you about offers from Virtual Casino and our marketing partners. However, these companies do not have any independent right to share this information.

We respond to subpoenas, court orders, or legal process, or to establish or exercise our legal rights or defend against legal claims;

We believe it is necessary to share information in order to investigate, prevent, or take action regarding illegal activities, suspected fraud, situations involving potential threats to the physical safety of any person, violations of Virtual Casino's terms of use, or as otherwise required by law.

We transfer information about you if Virtual Casino is acquired by or merged with another company. In this event, Virtual Casino will notify you before information about you is transferred and becomes subject to a different privacy policy

Virtual Casino uses web beacons to access Virtual Casino cookies inside and outside our network of web sites and in connection with Virtual Casino products and services.

Your Ability to Edit and Delete Your Account Information and Preferences:
You can edit your Virtual Casino Account Information, including your marketing preferences, at any time. New categories of marketing communications may be added to the Marketing Preferences page from time to time. Users who visit this page can opt out of receiving future marketing communications from these new categories or they can un-subscribe by following instructions contained in the messages they receive.

We reserve the right to send you certain communications relating to the Virtual Casino service, such as service announcements, administrative messages and the Virtual Casino Newsletter, that are considered part of your Virtual Casino account, without offering you the opportunity to opt-out of receiving them.

You can delete your Virtual Casino account by visiting our Account Deletion page.

Confidentiality and Security:
We limit access to personal information about you to our employees who we believe reasonably need to come into contact with that information to provide products or services to you or in order to do their jobs. We have physical, electronic, and procedural safeguards that comply with federal regulations to protect personal information about you. Your Virtual Casino Account Information is password- protected. In certain areas Virtual Casino uses industry-standard SSL encryption to protect data transmissions.

Changes to this Privacy Policy:
Virtual Casino may update this policy. We will notify you about significant changes in the way we treat personal information by sending a notice to the primary email address specified in your Virtual Casino account or by placing a prominent notice on our site.


I hazard a guess to say that WOL Policy (http://www.winneronline.com/boardrules.html) is clear enough..

4) The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of ALI and its parent, subsidiary and affiliated companies

9) We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message

12) We reserve the right to reveal your identity (or other information available to us) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you..


What do your terms say you can do VTed? I take it a professional lawyer in the field of online gaming wrote them? Are adherance to privacy laws and procedures part of your license to operate a gambling establishment?

What if anything can the casino use to prove its reasons that would not be construed as posting confidential information?

In general we read the "confidential information" clause in pretty strict terms. In other words, the person's full name and address, home phone, credit info, etc would be innapropriate in a post. Other stuff like account names etc is, if necessary, pretty much fair game IMHO.

As to the adjudication question it's not something we normally do but we would have to look at each case individually.

My personal feeling is that if the player is trying to strongarm the casino by lieing on the boards then the casino is invited to respond as they see fit because the player is not only abusing the casino they are abusing their rights here too.

In the few cases we've had in the past where a player was caught using the boards to lie and cheat they were usually either banned outright or put on a seriously short leash until it was clear that they'd cleaned up their act.

In the vast majority of the cases we've seen the issue can be dealt with if it's done out in the open. This is why we encouraqe the casinos to participate in these discussions and not take the "we don't post" approach. Needless to say a professional attitude is expected of everyone.

Thanks for the Info, from all of you. You have given great insight. I think this why as a casino we don't answer some complaints because the casino is under certain guidelines when reporting information, and the player is free to say what they want. Thanks for the help
Ted
P.S. this was not about anything going on with us, as I do come on the board and answer players questions when necessary, just a thought I had.

Good post, Max - whilst I strongly support the imperative for personal information security, I'm pretty sure that privacy clauses did not evolve to protect fraudulent individuals whose activities in this respect benefit noone but themselves.

Players frequently demand proof that a ban or disqualification was on fair grounds, and this is one way to double check assertions of player fraud rather than depending solely on the arbitrary decision of a casino manager.

Prominent and trusted webmasters have deployed this verification tactic to expose genuine rogues, and imo such fraudulent individuals should not escape unscathed when discovered any more than casinos can expect not to be singled out for bad practice.

Yes, the casino can respond how they see fit, within the rules of the forum.

The casino also have to stand by their own rules or privacy clauses.

Me, Max, Jet or anyone can read the casino terms. What we cannot do is know how the casino interprets them.

VTED needs to be able to answer the question before anyone else.

Vteds Question ~ What if anything can the casino use to prove its reasons that would not be construed as posting confidential information?

I think this why as a casino we don't answer some complaints because the casino is under certain guidelines when reporting information, and the player is free to say what they want.

No offense but I think you're reading things into the confidential information clause that were never intended. Let me put it this way: the purpose of the clause is to protect anyone, players included, from financial, legal or personal harm. It is _not_ intended to shield miscreants from the repercussions of their actions, be they players or casino personnel.

If a player is playing dirty there are a number of things that any casino person can do:

- Number one is contact us and alert us to the problem: this will bring a watchful eye to bear on the poster's activities which is in itself often enough to resolve the situation.

- Number two is to respond here quickly and "with extreme prejudice". Again, this often resolves the problem within a few days. There's nothing like the light of day to reveal a bogus scam for what it really is.

- Number three, if necessary, is to provide us with supporting evidence and ask us for assistance. Casino management staff have taken this course with us --hopefully as a last resort-- several times in the past and received no small satisfaction because of it. Players are free to do the same, of course.

Overall I'd have to say that IMHO the casino has a considerable amount of clout when it comes to getting messy situations cleaned up. What they are generally advised not to do is sink to a misbehaving player's level and start an ugly slagging match. All that does is waste bandwidth.

My advice is this: keep it professional, be firm and direct, and pursue the matter to it's conclusion using the avenues outlined above. In cases like this where the player is clearly on tilt I think you'll find that the casino will seldom leave the field unsatisfied. However if the player's claim is legitimate, or partially justified as is often the case, the resolution will likely fall somewhere between the player's demands and the casino's wishes.

QUOTE It is _not_ intended to shield miscreants from the repercussions of their actions, be they players or casino personnel.UNQUOTE

Right on!

This is an excellent discussion.

I see misbehavior on both sides, players and casinos, all the time.

They should surely have an equal chance to present their case. I think Max' solutions are excellent and lend WOL a lot of credibility.