It's a typical "he said, she said" show. Maybe someone would think it's nonesense but for whoever for whatever reason that like to know "part" of the story, you can check it for yourself here.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458

Please don't post response here in WOL, Leave the battle on CM's board.

This matter has gargantuan implications for all online casino players.

A summary of the case as presented to us outsiders: Player won c.$1,400,000 playing Carribean21 (blackjack variant) for insanely high stakes at various RTGs, principally Hampton (Portofino sister); RTG initially removed the game for software testing, presumably looking for evidence that the player somehow manipulated the results or otherwise "cheated"; however, the game was subsequently declared sound and the player's payments - $4000 per week - began; the player then appeared on the message boards under the handle "Pirateofc21" using some innocent but badly-chosen references to "ports" and "crews"; sometime later, and possibly in connection with his public appearance and those unfortunate expressions - the casino accused the player of having utilized a robot device during his play, and given that the casino's T & C forbid this, declared that his winnings - previously approved and in the process of being paid - were to be forfeited.

No evidence has been presented by the casino to justify the "bot" claim, and the casino has failed to supply the player with the requested copy of his game logs.

When it becomes acceptable practice for casinos to void winnings for reasons they are permitted to leave undisclosed you can probably ring down the curtain on the whole online gambling scene.

It may go down as one of the most expensive message board threads in Internet history to date. It is a train wreck. I agree that it is best debated over at Casinomeister.

This is what a million dollars looks like:
http://www.lvlg.com/lasvegas/attracts/binion1.jpg

WizardOfOdds has a payout certification thing (I know it's not exactly useful because the casino could supply fake log files) but he claims to check for statistical abnormalities.

From his site CERTIFIEDFAIRGAMBLING.COM: "What I do is evaluate casino log files to verify both return percentage and randomness. The randomness testing is performed by tabulating total occurences of various events and performing statistical tests to ensure the results are in line with statistical norms."

http://www.hamptoncasino.com/payouts.asp shows that the 21 games had a 103.42% return for December. The pirateofc21 claims this includes his play and Wizard didn't seem to detect any statistical abnormalities although I'm not sure he actually checked this game well enough (the payout ratio looks too high). I think he must have the stats though.

In case you don't have the patience to read all the crap...
The game itself is fine and dandy. RTG took the game off twice but they can't find any bugs with it.
Casino meister is convinced that the player used a "robot" to play. Based on the recorded conversation, the player admitted he used the bot and offered to sell the software to RTG.
Later the player said "he was just playing along with them"! If he was telling the truth, this is gonna be the dumbest act I've ever heard.
I think maybe the player did use a bot. Since he broke the rules, it is very unlikely he will get paid. Now the problem is, how can a bot alter the result remotely from the client side?
So many questions went unanswered...

Hampton has posted their position in the thread at Casinomeister. It includes the sound clip they offer as evidence.

It seems to me that Hamptons have just shot themselves in the foot and badly damaged their case with a posting that explicitly admits that their intention in calling Pirate was to entrap him into an admission (see point 8 of their public statement). How ethical is that? And how would that stand up in a court?

Other statements that stand out are the sheer arrogance of refusing to post crucial evidence that the Pirate was using a bot because it was "...extremely technical" and there's a serious lack of credibility in only posting selected and edited parts of a conversation where the Pirate is alleged to have confessed to using a bot.

Surely an honest, independent and technically oriented broker like The Wizard or The Gamemaster could have been commissioned to interpret and give a verdict the industry can trust on this technical evidence which is so beyond us, and on the gaming logs for that matter? Why was this course not followed to prove conclusively that Pirate had contravened their T&Cs and was therefore rightly disqualified from his winnings?

Given the fact that RTG have twice intensively checked out the game and given it a clean bill of health, I would have thought that would be a possible approach.

Are we seriously expected to believe that Hamptons acted in an ethical and trustworthy manner when they admit to deliberately seeking to ensnare Pirate in an admission?

Who is advising these people, for goodness sake? This is not creating any sort of positive result or impression and would be largely inadmissible in any court.

You guys have to listen to even this selective tape that Hamptons have made available - the Hamptons guy is very clearly (to my mind) "leading" the Pirate into these alleged admissions. A good litigator will shred this to pieces in no time.

And here's a Hamptons manager suggesting to the Pirate - on tape - that they buddy up with a fat bankroll, find another casino with deep pockets and no bot restrictions and make themselves some money. It is absolutely unbelievable.

Hamptons, it is not too late to avert the disaster for which you are clearly headed - go to The Wiz or The Gamemaster with your technical proof and have them vouch for it - that's if you really have any, of course.

Couldnt agree more. Solid proof is needed. In that mp3 the pirates sound seems different on the ones that he posted on the other website, atleast to me?
What do you think? (or is it just my crappy speakers). Hampton could have easily made this "proof" tape themselves....?

-kavaman



It seems to me that Hamptons have just shot themselves in the foot and badly damaged their case with a posting that explicitly admits that their intention in calling Pirate was to entrap him into an admission (see point 8 of their public statement). How ethical is that? And how would that stand up in a court?

Other statements that stand out are the sheer arrogance of refusing to post crucial evidence that the Pirate was using a bot because it was "...extremely technical" and there's a serious lack of credibility in only posting selected and edited parts of a conversation where the Pirate is alleged to have confessed to using a bot.

Surely an honest, independent and technically oriented broker like The Wizard or The Gamemaster could have been commissioned to interpret and give a verdict the industry can trust on this technical evidence which is so beyond us, and on the gaming logs for that matter? Why was this course not followed to prove conclusively that Pirate had contravened their T&Cs and was therefore rightly disqualified from his winnings?

Given the fact that RTG have twice intensively checked out the game and given it a clean bill of health, I would have thought that would be a possible approach.

Are we seriously expected to believe that Hamptons acted in an ethical and trustworthy manner when they admit to deliberately seeking to ensnare Pirate in an admission?

Who is advising these people, for goodness sake? This is not creating any sort of positive result or impression and would be largely inadmissible in any court.

You guys have to listen to even this selective tape that Hamptons have made available - the Hamptons guy is very clearly (to my mind) "leading" the Pirate into these alleged admissions. A good litigator will shred this to pieces in no time.

And here's a Hamptons manager suggesting to the Pirate - on tape - that they buddy up with a fat bankroll, find another casino with deep pockets and no bot restrictions and make themselves some money. It is absolutely unbelievable.

Hamptons, it is not too late to avert the disaster for which you are clearly headed - go to The Wiz or The Gamemaster with your technical proof and have them vouch for it - that's if you really have any, of course.

Couldnt agree more. Solid proof is needed. In that mp3 the pirates sound seems different on the ones that he posted on the other website, atleast to me?
What do you think? (or is it just my crappy speakers). Hampton could have easily made this "proof" tape themselves....?

-kavaman

I have asked Pirate about this and wondered why Hampton's didn't release the rest of the tape. He said that together with the other two recordings, it was most of the conversation. It was actually the same conversation in all three recordings (Pirate said: "the 2 clips I posted are part of that recording"). He said there was another conversation with his wife that the casino has a recording of too but hasn't released.

The Pirate told me: "If you put the 2 pieces from earlier together with this call you will have most of the conversation. This is it. I was told the money is no more so WTF I had to find out what the hell they could have and of course he wouldn't give anything up because they don't have any proof. "

The two other recordings are in the 'NEWS AND VIEWS' section of my forum at www.faircasinos.com/forum

Unfortunately, I suspect that he is going to go down in online casino history as a legend - The Man Who Threw Away Millions.

Putting to one side for a second how he was able to reap such significant rewards, Pirate had this whole thing waxed until he became greedy and voluble - no-one locked on to him and he cashed out $40K from Breakaway casino, $14K from Delano Casino (with another $96k suspended there) $30K each from Prism and Virtual and $20K from Phoenician Casino plus other unknown amounts from outfits like Crystal Palace. He boasts of that in one of his earlier posts at Casinomeister.

All RTG powered, so presumably he has some sort of system that beats RTG
software on the Caribbean 21 game, although they have run two intensive
inspections and found nothing.

Had he continued in a controlled, below-the-radar way he could have done the rounds of RTG casinos and picked up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A legend indeed.

But that doesn't excuse Hampton's increasingly desperate attempts to wriggle out of an obligation that they have apparently been unable to prove does not exist....

Unfortunately, I suspect that he is going to go down in online casino history as a legend - The Man Who Threw Away Millions.

Putting to one side for a second how he was able to reap such significant rewards, Pirate had this whole thing waxed until he became greedy and voluble - no-one locked on to him and he cashed out $40K from Breakaway casino, $14K from Delano Casino (with another $96k suspended there) $30K each from Prism and Virtual and $20K from Phoenician Casino plus other unknown amounts from outfits like Crystal Palace. He boasts of that in one of his earlier posts at Casinomeister.

All RTG powered, so presumably he has some sort of system that beats RTG
software on the Caribbean 21 game, although they have run two intensive
inspections and found nothing.

Had he continued in a controlled, below-the-radar way he could have done the rounds of RTG casinos and picked up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A legend indeed.

...
Holy cow!
Is it real? How can he win so much on different casinos!!?
My guess is that their RNG has some kinda of pattern or he is using a bot to predict the RNG. Maybe he has a way to figure out what's the seeds of RNG. Who knows, he is already a rich man by doing so.
If the whole story is real, I for one would be very interested. :D
Anyway, it's very, very, very, unlikely to win so much money from different casinos with a random game. I bet RTG will spot him anyway, sooner or later.

Jetset i wholly agree with you that this is unbelievable. Unfortunately this only hurts both sides of our industry, player and casinos alike. I think both sides have behaved very poorly.

Two things that I cannot understand are:

1. For the Hampton manager try to trick the player by suggesting they go after
other casinos using his program and even more so recording it and putting it on the net for all to here it.

2. Why did not any of the casino managers notice that a single player was racking up such a large win rate and not suspend that players play while they further investigated.

All in all i hope this gets resolved soon, our industry does not need this bad publicity.

Brian

Unfortunately, I suspect that he is going to go down in online casino history as a legend - The Man Who Threw Away Millions.

Putting to one side for a second how he was able to reap such significant rewards, Pirate had this whole thing waxed until he became greedy and voluble - no-one locked on to him and he cashed out $40K from Breakaway casino, $14K from Delano Casino (with another $96k suspended there) $30K each from Prism and Virtual and $20K from Phoenician Casino plus other unknown amounts from outfits like Crystal Palace. He boasts of that in one of his earlier posts at Casinomeister.

All RTG powered, so presumably he has some sort of system that beats RTG
software on the Caribbean 21 game, although they have run two intensive
inspections and found nothing.

Had he continued in a controlled, below-the-radar way he could have done the rounds of RTG casinos and picked up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A legend indeed.

But that doesn't excuse Hampton's increasingly desperate attempts to wriggle out of an obligation that they have apparently been unable to prove does not exist....

this guy sounds like >>SNIP<< at the same time being a terrific scammer

i have no sympathy for >>SNIP<< like him........its people like him and oliver curran that bring this biz to its current level

i think we need to rid the industry of all scamming casinos and players, this guy should be first

this has to be the weirdest situation in gaming histroy, certainly something that wont be resolved on the boards.....

[Max says: I suggest you re-read the "Our Better Nature" announcement in this and every other forum here at WINNERonline.com Might want to check out the wol_rules_and_policies while you're at it. If you can't post without name-calling and cussing then don't bother.]

http://www.gambling911.com/online-casino-robots.html

islandmaan is entirely correct: another black eye for the industry... Why does Hampton's feel this helps their case in any shape or form? And if RTG produces a game which has exploitable tendencies it is by definition non-random. A bot will only play prefect basic strategy for any given game, and will not change the house advantage.

Ron Lewin, Casino Manager for Hampton Casino even seems to be crowing about entraping the player into this alledged confession: "I learned how to do this from watching a lot of Law and Order," is just breathtakingly stupid. There was also a telling remark on why this situation has been handled so poorly by both parties:

"We do have the proof that this guy cheated" Lewin insists. "But which outside party are we supposed to present this proof to? There are no regulatory bodies in this industry."

Not a great moment for anyone associated with online gambling. :rolleyes:

This reminds me of someone in our own backyard who claims to be able to win consistently without bonuses in two different softwares by practising in the fun mode.
Perhaps his claims deserve more credibility now.

This reminds me of someone in our own backyard who claims to be able to win consistently without bonuses in two different softwares by practising in the fun mode.
Perhaps his claims deserve more credibility now.

Hi Raje. Just curious where would that backyard be? Have a good one.

Cipher

"We do have the proof that this guy cheated" Lewin insists. "But which outside party are we supposed to present this proof to? There are no regulatory bodies in this industry."

Not a great moment for anyone associated with online gambling.



Yes, regulation is sorely needed.

Hi Raje. Just curious where would that backyard be? Have a good one.

Cipher

WOL
......

Big news on this issue has just come to light. One Mr. Mccain, a big wheel at RTG has shed some new light on this issue. Apparently Hamptons has been caught in some big lies. Check the link below
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3614

Now it's conclusive. RTG doesn't find any evidence of cheating or using bot for that matter. The player won fair and square.
The evidence hampton casino claimed are all false.
There are still a few serious issues need to be address here.
(1) It is RTG that lock the player out of all his account, not the casino's decision. Now all the fund locked by RTG casinos should be released.
(2) All casinos should pay up, not just hampton casino.
Most of us are amazed on how dirty hampton casino is, which is important but we also have to look into the big picture. It's RTG that pull off the game, lock the player's account then come out clean saying that they have nothing to do with the player or their casino operators.
It's just plain wrong IMO.

Now it's conclusive. RTG doesn't find any evidence of cheating or using bot for that matter. The player won fair and square.
The evidence hampton casino claimed are all false.
There are still a few serious issues need to be address here.
(1) It is RTG that lock the player out of all his account, not the casino's decision. Now all the fund locked by RTG casinos should be released.
(2) All casinos should pay up, not just hampton casino.
Most of us are amazed on how dirty hampton casino is, which is important but we also have to look into the big picture. It's RTG that pull off the game, lock the player's account then come out clean saying that they have nothing to do with the player or their casino operators.
It's just plain wrong IMO.
Nothing is conclusive in this sordid tale. RTG could be lying just as easily as Hamptons or the Pirate. Perhaps all of them are. Until such time as we see real evidence and not just hearsay, or absurd taped confessionals, all of these players are suspect.

What is clear, or is my impression of these events, is that RTG are seeking to distance themselves from Hamptons while maintaining the integrity of their software. It would seem incumbent upon them to pursuade Hamptons to release the play logs for independent verification as soon as possible. Failing that, RealTimeGaming's version is little more than a callow PR exercise designed soley to shift the blame and divert attention from the fundamental question in this issue: can RTG's software be trusted?

Nothing is conclusive in this sordid tale. RTG could be lying just as easily as Hamptons or the Pirate. Perhaps all of them are. Until such time as we see real evidence and not just hearsay, or absurd taped confessionals, all of these players are suspect.

What is clear, or is my impression of these events, is that RTG are seeking to distance themselves from Hamptons while maintaining the integrity of their software. It would seem incumbent upon them to pursuade Hamptons to release the play logs for independent verification as soon as possible. Failing that, RealTimeGaming's version is little more than a callow PR exercise designed soley to shift the blame and divert attention from the fundamental question in this issue: can RTG's software be trusted?

I agree completely.

It is a tightrope for RTG, businesswise. Distancing themselves from Hampton is also a two-edged sword.

You say that perhaps all of the involved parties are lying - I can't rid myself of the feeling that this is so.

This is really a matter for the courts - but will they even deal with an activity that maybe illegal? Although, there is no federal law in the states that makes online gambling illegal.

Is Pirate living in a state where it is illegal?

Is Pirate living in a state where it is illegal?
I believe he's from New York City, Brooklyn perhaps. I don't think there's any laws specific to online casino gambling on the books there.

Apparently the Pirate could get the play logs directly from RTG. I didn't know that. Other players have gone to the top man, Michael Staw, through michael@realtimegaming.com

There was a thread at casinomeister about this recently.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3489

Given the current state of affairs this ad is in staggeringly bad taste and can only be seen as a cynical and opportunistic marketing ploy. Dean, you've got some explaining to do. :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn:

It has been suggested elsewhere that is a good sign for the Pirate, that he will eventually be paid. That remains to be seen. I can assure all involved that if this goes to a "mutually agreed upon settlement" where the details are never released that RTG's role in this will not be forgotten by the players.

[see attachment]

Given the current state of affairs this ad is in staggeringly bad taste and can only be seen as a cynical and opportunistic marketing ploy. Dean, you've got some explaining to do. :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn:

It has been suggested elsewhere that is a good sign for the Pirate, that he will eventually be paid. That remains to be seen. I can assure all involved that if this goes to a "mutually agreed upon settlement" where the details are never released that RTG's role in this will not be forgotten by the players.

[see attachment]

I think that Phoenician should give the Pirate a nice huge bonus (C-21 allowed, of course) to make up for it. ;)

this is a copy of what i posted in the other thread

Happy to comment about this.

I threw this job to one of my graphics guys about the rerelease of the game and he came up with the pirate theme based on 'caribbean' when he showed me i thought it was amusing and did not see any issue with sending this out. I thought that players following the issue would see it as amusing.

I would like to add that i did not reference the fact that a player had won 1.3 million - which in my opinion would have been a strong promotion because of the issues surrounding it. I would also like to add we paid brian ( the pirate of the caribbean ) all the money he won from our casino and did not have any issue with his play. I also emailed him and let him know when the game comes back online that he can feel welcome playing at our casino. Previous to all these problems going down brian and i had ( and still have ) a good relationship.

As far as commenting about Hamptons - you must realize i have to be diplomatic about this and the only thing i can really add to what i have said above ( ie we paid the player and welcome him back ) is if a casino is prepared to raise limits then they need to be prepared to pay. What were they thinking as they were watching his play go from 200k to 300k to 400k etc it was their decision to chase the losses and now they have to deal with it. However if he did use a bot and it is against their terms then that raises another issue which they now have to deal with not me:-) . I personally dont think he used a bot and even if he did it is not set to perfect play so go figure. The game itself is a pretty aggresive sort of game and if you get on a good run you can do some damage either way.

If you are offended by my ad then i do apologize , i did authorize it , i did know of the connection with the PC21 but i would hope you can view it in the context of what i have said above.

Well, thanks for your frankness and your taking complete responsibility. No "overzealous webmasters" at work or other nonsense. I don't imagine you'll be receiving a Christmas card from Hamptons casino but be that as it may....

Profitting (privateering?) during a sensitve time with an issue as loaded and potentially a mindfield for RTG shows exceedingly poor judgement. The "it's-not-my-problem" attitude may come back to bite you in the ass should Hamptons refuse to pay if their weak position is found to be groundless, or RTG mishandles this situation further.