Well the time has finally come for us to read the writing on the wall. For several weeks now we've been hearing serious complaints from some of our most trusted and respected contributors that our message boards are becoming a cesspool of complaints and negativity.

I'd hoped that the crumbing was just an ill wind that would blow itself out but that doesn't appear to have been the case. It's getting worse, the complaints are mounting and it's high time we did something about it.

So here's the (new) deal: the negative stuff (as in rants, diatribes and mud-slinging) is going to get bumped to the new forum called THE RIGHT ANSWER. Sorry, but BEST AND WORST has turned into a bad-news soapbox and that was not what we had in mind. If you wanna shovel dirt THE RIGHT ANSWER is the place to be. Otherwise BEST AND WORST is where we discuss casinos and related issues.

One of the most poignant things I've heard is that because of the negative spin on things in BEST AND WORST our message boards "suck". Well that's exactly what I want to change and moving the gripes to THE RIGHT ANSWER is my idea for achieving that change.

Of course the first question about where things belong is gonna be "who decides?". Fortunately that's a simple question to answer: me. Why? 'Cause that's my job and I've been told to clean house.

If this fails I'll probably get sacked and you can apply for my job if you think you're up to the task. Until then we'll try it this way and see how it goes.

Best regards,
Max Drayman


[This message has been edited by max (edited 09-15-2002).]

If "Best and Worst" is now simply "Best" while "The right answer" is "worst", why not just keep those titles?

Just split it into one "Best" part and one "Worst" part. Having a "Best and Worst" where no negative posts are allowed seems quite pointless.

Not intending BEST AND WORST to simply become BEST, but your point is well taken.

Regards,
Max

The point is probably that "Best" equates to "This casino is great" and "Worst" to "This casino has ripped me off - stay away" (Greef, Cyber Croup, etc). "Worst" does NOT equate to "This casino is rigged, boo-hoo-hoo", amongst other things.

In other words, the un-productive whingeing will be dumped elsewhere, and the productive stuff will remain.

Uh-oh.

I don't think dumping the CyberCroupier and Greef Club warning threads in the new forum is a good idea at ALL, unless you intend to do some serious re-naming and stick the new one DIRECTLY underneath this one, ie. put it on an equal footing. And that being the case, why have two at all?

It's going to be unfortunate if the result of your "orders" is the rogues getting off scott free.

Where did your orders come from? Crypto, should one assume?

"For several weeks now we've been hearing serious complaints from some of our most trusted and respected contributors"

Who are these people that are complaining please stand up and share with us all who u are and why u are upset or is this just some lame excuse to burry the things u dont want newcomers to see right away. We all know that most people do not even click on the other catagories. Why would u name it THE RIGHT ANWSWER,I guess u could not think of anything less atractive for people to click on. If u must have a new catagory, then name it casino complaints. I bet u the posts will exceed the best and the worst in no time at all. ITS ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS
I WOULD NEVER SELL OUT , UNLESS THE PRICE WAS RITE

[This message has been edited by kidcool (edited 09-11-2002).]

How about calling the new forum:

"Pissed Off Posters" :eek:

in honor of Kidcool?? :D :D

Those who are complaining should post publicly why they want changes made.

I don't know. Perhaps some "clean up" is needed. I don't read every thread, and sometimes I check out a thread, and don't want to finish reading, so I try another that interest me.

Some of the threads/posts I think are dumb, but so what? I just move on. But then, I don't feel personally offended, like maybe, the "complainers" do.

I just don't like "anonymous" persons "whining to get their way", rather than making a public request for everyone to see.

Seems like a "behind the back" way to get what you want done.

Anyway, the "complainers" managed to push the right button on this, and "THY WILL BE DONE"!!

AS

------------------
TheAPage.com (http://www.theapage.com)

A.S.,

Anyone who has been following the board on a
regular basis, can easily "see" who some of the complaining posters were.


Only one person so far has come out and
stated on here that they were one of the
people who registered a complaint.

That was Colly. Will the rest be as honest?

We shall see.....


For the record, Damian annoyed me numerous
times with his postings. The only complaints
I made were right here in the threads,
directly to him.

Although he "crossed the line" on many occasions, this is a public board, and I
don't fully agree with the decision to ban
him, based on other members complaints.

He should have remained banned when Max
originally did so. That would have been
justified. Being banned for what he has done recently, is what I don't agree with.

There have been a "lot" of other posters
who have "crossed the line" of the WOL
rules and regulations recently.

Damian should not be the only one banned
if that is the criteria being used to make
the decision.

Just my 2 cents worth...


[This message has been edited by Mrracetrack (edited 09-11-2002).]

Max, I don't think this is the way to go.

The BEST and WORST thread has stood WOL in good stead over time and I think that trying to seperate the negative opinions from the positive into two different threads could be confusing, and not do justice to either...and they are both important.

The solution I am about to propose to you would unfortunately involve more work and exposure to flak on your side, because I would suggest that the chief problem here has not been negative views on casino or other organisations, but abusive and at times downright false and provocative posting. And most of us share the guilt.

If you agree that that is the case, then a more immediate and firmer hand on the moderating helm may be the answer.

Before I get shouted down on that suggestion, may I expand on it by saying that any flagrant infringements of the posting guide on this board (spamming, abuse included) should be immediately picked up and the poster concerned cautioned and reminded of the posting etiquette. Should he or she persist despite fair and polite caution, then a ban would be indicated.

I'm not talking about the casual frustration and loss of cool which happens everywhere, but the bitter, sustained, undisciplined and downright mean verbiage we have seen used here in both the disparagement of organizations and the wilful insult and abuse of other members.

We are all sufficiently experienced on posting to know pretty much where the line rests between brief flashes of irritation and totally counter-productive, prolonged sniping and hostility...and I am confident that you do too as the moderator here one step removed from the front line and therefore probably possessed of more objectivity.

Unfortunately many of us have fallen into an argumentative and bitter rut - you can see that on this very thread - where a more constructive approach which simply calls for a little thought before posting for the benefit of everyone is more appropriate imv.

Merely seperating the negative from the positive is not the root of the problem that has bedevilled WOL these past two or three months - this is still a top quality board that reflects a knowledgeable and diverse cross section of posters. The posters make or break a board - it's up to us to ensure this one continues to prosper.

IMO this topic doesn't belong here and should be bumped.

[This message has been edited by jondo (edited 09-12-2002).]

I am sorry to see we will be losing some of our diversity of opinion. If I only wanted to read the opinions which agree with mine, I could post all my opinions in my word processor and would not need this board at all.

Certain posters on this board do manage to drive me crazy with fuzzy logic and superstition.

At least one is very difficult for me to understand because he regularly displays the inadequacies of the public school system in southern California and blames others for his shortcomings.

Many people come to this board with an agenda which is incompatible with honest discussion, promoting casinos who cannot stand on their actual performance. This board has a formidable component who aggressively label the spammers.

Some other posters just cannot believe they lost while gambling and make wild and unprovable charges, exaggerating the facts to make a stronger case.

A few more members, and some now banned members, need a few more lessons from their mothers on politeness.

I view all of this as the cost of getting to the good information that I do find here on a regular basis. Many members have provided me with useful information, and this information has probably saved me multiple headaches and thousands of dollars. If I have to work so hard to find the good stuff in multiple forums, Winner Online will be less valuable to me.

I agree with Kidcool when says that if there is to be a new message board why not call it "Casino Complaints"?

"The Right Answer" says nothing about the content within the board.

Hi all,

My suggestion is to create a new board that will contain ALL massages from all the boards together. So those who want to see the diversified boards will go whereever they want and those that want to see all massages together will go to that board that will contain the sum of all boards together

It is here in the suggestion box board: http://www.winneronline.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/
000018.html

Hre I copy it:
Tester
Member posted 09-12-2002 11:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Max,
It is the time to form an all in one massage board.

I'm not going to intervent in your decision to move threads, and forming a new category in the boards.

There was really some change in the climate in the "BEST & WORST" board that bothered many regulars here. There could be various solutions for that - each solution has its own pro and cons. So it is your job and your decision.

However, as CM (Bet2Gamble) pointed out in another thread here, and Trader 1.1 in "the new plan" in the "best" board: For a lot of people the usefulness of the board goes down with that step of diversifing boards.

To make everybody satisfied, I would suggest to open a new board called "All in One" that will contain ALL threads over ALL boards. I'm pretty sure that many many people will find it a great idea. Such a board will be 80% "BEST" since the other boards have very few posts.

Please let me know if you see any problem in that idea. Maybe I can offer ways to overcome problems in that idea, if there were.

Don't know that it's particularly significant but my marching orders came from the senior WOL management in response to numerous complaints about the boards from such diverse sources as Crypto shareholders, long-term advertisers at WOL, valued business associates and veteran board users.

As to whether the approach I've taken will prove to be fair or foul I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm interested in the input you all have given but I haven't heard anything yet to convince me that what I've done needs a make-over.

Regards,
Max.

For crickeys sakes Max!

This is a BOARD! When people start telling you what can/cannot be posted and you listen to it... Well, it defeats it's original purpose does it not?

If crypto have given you this directive, fine. Have fun.



------------------
Webslave and Portal Owner

JEEEEEz, who gives a toss what the "Crypto shareholders" and "WOL advertisers" want??? If you want a forum full of "gurgle gurgle, gee, whizz what a super-duper operation Casino X is" and none of the important warning information posted here, then you can kiss goodbye to your advertisers and shareholders because nobody will come here any more and there won't be any value in advertising, down go Crypto profits, down goes the share price, and bye-bye shareholders.

How the hell do you have a "Best and <U>WORST</U>" forum WITHOUT the likes of Cyber Croupier, Greef Club and all the rest???

Castrate the players as you see fit, but you'll destroy the value of the board in the proccess. I wonder how those precious shareholders and advertisers will feel then?

By the way, which "veteran board users" opted for this? Care to identify yourselves?

I arrived on the scene much too late to know how this board became incredibly successful. In my view, it is a phenomenon, unequaled in the gaming industry.

If I were a crypto shareholder, a valued business associate or a long time advertiser, I would become very insecure when the 'formula' was subjected to 'tinkering'!

Now if I was a 'board veteran' and someone stepped on my toes, selfishly, I might want changes made. Board veterans should stay to ('colloquialism for copulate') out of the kitchen if it happens to be 'too warm' for their delicate natures! Just my opinion....

The board will survive but I don't look forward to the end result of this emasculation!

Originally posted by max:
Don't know that it's particularly significant but my marching orders came from the senior WOL management in response to numerous complaints about the boards from such diverse sources as Crypto shareholders, long-term advertisers at WOL, valued business associates and veteran board users.

As to whether the approach I've taken will prove to be fair or foul I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm interested in the input you all have given but I haven't heard anything yet to convince me that what I've done needs a make-over.

Regards,
Max.


No need for a makeover Max..Too late.

What happened to Crypto non interference?

It was inevitable..

The diversity in posts is what makes this place interesting, and what makes people come back, again and again.

If you are after specific info. then I suggest they improve the search function so that you get the individual post and not the entire(up to 4 pages) thread.
And make the search function more obvious for newbies, and sort it so that when Max moves a thread to another category it doesnt get lost in a 'cant find that thread' search return.

Weve got pretty much every type of poster involved in the egaming industry (from a players' perspective.)
I dont think any board on the web can improve on that bit.

As far as losing $$'s is concerned, I believe the entire industry is struggling at the moment.

eek

In my opinion Testers suggestion is a very easy solution to this problem. It should satisfy the other interests (shareholders etc) as well as the posters of this board.

I had that idea almost two years ago - but didn't have time to do it. Someone else did, though - don't know how successful it is... Velveeta where are you?

------------------
Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information (http://www.got2bet.com)

You could see this coming. I have been to the point of not being able to stomach many of the posts in last few months. The main problems IMO have been:
1. Postings about rigged software with absolutely zero backup info except that someone lost their money.
2. Heavy infighting between portal owners.
3. An influx of posters who just like to hear themselves talk.

As ridiculous, childish and boring as this recent trend has been, it is a big mistake to be moving topics such as Reef Club and Cybercroupier which have major importance to the gaming public.

WOL is going to end up throwing out the baby in the bath water with this new policy and ruining the best gambling message board on the internet.

If their shareholders goal is to do this, they will succeed but it will be a shame.

If the opinion of long time posters had anything to do with this, I do not think those posters sought to cause these kinds of changes. In other words you have gone too far.

Let me say that i certainly did not complain about this board to Max.

WOL, please reconsider, dont destroy this board.

Couple thoughts to add to the mix:

- it's not Crypto that's asking for changes. Crypto shareholders have contacted us but home office itself hasn't.

- for the most part I agree with the complaints I've been hearing. BEST AND WORST _has_ turned into a bit if a cesspool. I've been trying to manage it by holding my nose and letting the users do as they see fit but it seems that that approach has outlived it's usefulness.

- the long-timers that have contacted us haven't been shrill about it. They've simply stated their concerns and left it up to us to do as we see fit.

- my intention is not to turn BEST AND WORST into self-congratulating puffery. My intention is to clean it up. At this point that means something like:
- dump the mud-slinging and in-fighting.
- shuffle the ranters off to RIGHT ANSWER.
- move the general discussion stuff over to JOKER's where it belongs.
- tighten up the freedom of speech leash a little so that the general tone of the the posts stay out of the gutter.

Is this ideal? Certainly not! What would be ideal is for the whole thing to have stayed reasonably clean and constructive the way it was a year or so ago. Anyone have the sparkly little wand to wave that will make that happen? I know I certainly don't. Until then I've got to do my best and this is it.

Regards,
Max.

CRYP - CRYPTOLOGIC INC
Last Price: 3.67 at 9:33 EDT
Change: Up 0.06 (+1.66%)
High: 3.67 at 9:33 EDT
Low: 3.67 at 9:33 EDT
Open: 3.67
Previous Close: 3.61 on 9/12
Volume: 200
30-Day Avg. Volume: 25,000
Shares Outstanding: 12,316,000
Market Cap.: 45,199,720
52-Week High: 23.20
52-Week Low: 3.61
Beta: Not Available
Yield: Nil
P/E Ratio: 52.43
EPS: 0.07
Currency Units: US Dollar
Exchange/Delay: Nasdaq: 15 minutes

Confirm all data with your broker or financial advisor before trading.

Data by: S&P ComStock

by tuesday , everyone in the hood will own stock with them

------------------
http://greedyways.com (http://greedyways.tripod.com) A man from the hood, that lays down the truth!!!

Max; What do you think of Testers idea? Isn´t that a simple and viable solution?

I disagree with moving my post "Stay far away from Microgaming" to the new forum.

However, Max is the moderator here, and I must accept his decision, as final.

So much for posting any more messages regarding rigged casino on the MAIN forum.

Most users look only at "Best and Worst" and a much smaller # of users look at the other forums. Therefore few users will see my message. I am losing the power to get my message out.

I am starting to agree more and more with Senator Kyle.

Max,

Here are my suggestions to restore the message board.

1) Post More: You are the head of this board, and therefore you set the tone of this board. I have never seen you act unprofessionally towards anyone in my two plus years of posting and lurking. Just yesterday, somebody clearly impugned your motives for trying to straighten this board out, but you handled it firmly and with class. All of us need to see more of that, and it starts with you setting the example by posting more.

2) Cure the Cancer: IMO, there are a few posters here who contribute a lot in a negative way. Basically, they show all of us how not to conduct ourselves. They bad mouth this board every chance they get outside of WOL, but never have the courage to speak their mind here. If they think so poorly of this board, then why do they continue to post here? Furthermore, why would any forum want posters like that?

If it were up to me, I would lay down the law with them privately, and if they didn't change their tune, then I would send them on their way.

3) Don't Break up the Board: IMO, moving threads and creating new forums will not solve the problem, because that isn't the problem. Most people do not want to see the board broken up because it has always provided a good source of information in its original format.

Anyhow, these are just my suggestions.

C.M.
www.bet2gamble.com (http://www.bet2gamble.com)

I wanted to wait a while to ad my thoughts on this.
Since reference has been made to long time posters complaining directly to WOL, I need to go on record as NOT being one those, along with all the others that have posted to that effect.

I too, however, have been VERY disenchanted to the point of rarely getting involved in the threads lately. I think I started one sincere topic in the last 90 days or so and it was met with such ignorance and insults I quit trying to come up with things to stimulate information and good discussions. It has become too painful and unproductive to even attempt to have a serious discussion.

I have noticed a decrease by others too and when they do, here AGAIN, it is usually because a poster has forced them to task with a derragatory statement.

There are 1000s of forums out there and plenty of places to go argue, fight and cuss and swear at. No problem with that either. This just isn't the right venue for that kind of posting.

This board has ALWAYS been "THE" source of many good arguments. I miss that. That's what keeps us coming back as some have eluded to. HMM, so what's the problem then?

Quite simply, the aruments these days are not about ANYTHING! It's about personal attacks or putting someone down in a demeaning fashion, etc.. Those are the people that need to be warned and then banned. The instigators. Damian is NOT the lone ranger in this. Some are just more cunning at disguising their attacks to start a barrage!

There have been many more posts about "This Portal Sucks", "The OPA Blows" and "You as an Individual are a scum bag", type posts than there have been about "REAL issues related to casinos, GOOD or BAD.

Are things going so smooth that there is nothing casino related left to bitch about? So let's move onto personal attacks instead?

That's exactly where this is all coming from. My conclusion is that the digs and inuendos have switched from being about a faceless casino to something of a far more personal nature. No good!

If I see my Portal name up in lights on a forum called "BEST and WORST" casinos, you can bet I'm coming out with both guns blazing! http://www.casinoplayersadvocate.com/GPA/images/smiles/new_2gunsfiring_v1.gif

I personally have NEVER INITIATED a personal attack on someone, but, you can bet I'll respond on it to the bitter end. Anyone would and EVERYBODY does!

This attitude is like a cancer and spreads to all of us eventually. It forces otherwise intelligent people to post ingnorant comments in defending their integrity or position, so it drags us down to their level. Sad but true. The only way to get rid of this is to cut it out.

So, the bottom line is this. JMO, Max.

Changing, reordering and creating new categories is not going to be effective if certain posters are allowed to post personal attacks and insulting remarks not related to casinos in the "BEST and WORST Casinos" forum. This is where the "DEGENERATION" is coming from.

The changes that have been made, IMO, fragment the information, makes it hard to follow and isn't the SOURCE of the problem to begin with.

These posters that are here to get their Jolly's off by posting barbs and insults will still be here and they will still screw things up just like they are now.

My suggestion, and Max, that's all it is. I'll support whatever you want to do. But I would reinstate the format and implement a 3 strike rule!

You get to be the Umpire! Be sure to wear your protector cup though! :eek:

There's nothing more embarrassing to a poster than to be chastised by the board management! It won't take too many times for people to wise up and you'll be back to the 3, 4, OK, 5 hour Martini lunches!

This simple feature would allow you to reorder attitudes, the source of the problem, and not the boards. Three warnings and then block their IP. No if ands or butts!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you WANT some HEATED battles on REAL issues, correct? You are not asking anyone to walk on egg shells. You just don't want all the petty personal attacks here. Correct?

Everybody sing it! And it's 1,2, 3 strikes your out of the ole ballgame.

Ok, I'm done suggesting! http://www.casinoplayersadvocate.com/GPA/images/smiles/new_all_coholic.gif


------------------
www.CasinoPlayersAdvocate.com (http://www.CasinoPlayersAdvocate.com/masterlist.html)

I too, however, have been VERY disenchanted to the point of rarely getting involved in the threads lately. I think I started one sincere topic in the last 90 days or so and it was met with such ignorance and insults I quit trying to come up with things to stimulate information and good discussions. It has become too painful and unproductive to even attempt to have a serious discussion.

I have noticed a decrease by others too and when they do, here AGAIN, it is usually because a poster has forced them to task with a derragatory statement.

CPA, I couldn't agree more. Elitism is a sad state of affairs indeed. You never stop learning IMHO. Open minds are just that but the closed seem to prevail here. There is no real sharing spirit here anymore and that is a shame.

Those that try are met by rebuttal, ridicule and never return. Some have thicker skins, but also know when something is a dead loss.

There are givers and takers here. Sadly the former are fast becoming one of the endangered species.

As I would probably be considered a "regular" nowadays I just wanted to say that I haven´t complained either.

Still interested in Max opinion on Testers suggestion. What about you others, what do you think? Wouldn´t it be a good and easy to implement solution?

I read that pretty closely before I posted.

My feeling is that the board order, separation, renaming or even consolidation is not where the problem lies. Therefore it may not produce the desired results. JMO

------------------
www.CasinoPlayersAdvocate.com (http://www.CasinoPlayersAdvocate.com/masterlist.html)

Obviously the "old guard" that ruled the roost for so long is simply mad because there are others on the internet that have opinions...that may be different from theirs.

Making complaints about people posting their opinions?

I say if you don't like what is being said, or can't take it, then go somewhere else.

Here is the problem with having a "BEST" board and a "WORST" board...If I go to the "BEST" board and post that I love X Casino I am sure to get jumped by 10 people that say that casino sucks....if I go to the "WORST" board and post that X Casino sucks 10 people will defend that casino to the death.

So in reality there are more negative posts about that great casino on the "BEST" board than there are in the "WORST" board.

I hate to have your job Max...you are going to go crazy. :)

[This message has been edited by mustang (edited 09-13-2002).]

In a recent post I made concerning a well-known casino, I posted what I liked about
the casino and what I did not like about
the casino.

Am I now supposed to post my Best commments
about this casino on one thread and my
Worst comments about this casino on another
thread?

This will only serve to break up the continuity of my comments as well as the
replies from any respondents.

Max - Re-read Jetset's message above. He speaks THE TRUTH. By moving my messages to a forum noobody reads, YOU ARE BASICALLY CENSORING ME. The majority of newbies won't go to THE RIGHT ANSWER forum. They will only look at BEST AND WORST. Even many of the regulars simply won't have the time to read every forum. You may disagree with the jist of my messages, but don't inhibit my ability to speak to the masses.

Throughout the years, I have made numerous posts about various software providers being rigged. I was right on target about iGlobalMedia and HandaLopez from the very beginning. Sue Schneider of the River City Group and IGC publicly bad mouthed me, and told me she had complete confidence in the randomness of this software. Keith Furlong and Mark Balestra said the exact same thing. Mark told me this several years ago on the forums of RTGOnline, prior to writing his book, The Complete Idiots Guide (To Online Gambling), and Keith told me this in an email. Both were proven wrong 2 years ago, when the Wizard of Odds tested several iGlobalMedia sites, and was convinced the software was downright crooked:

"All iGlobalMedia casinos: Last year (2000) I advertised an iGlobalMedia casino and several viewers were outraged and insisted they were cheating. So at that time I played one myself and my losses were so excessive that I had to agree that the cards were not being dealt randomly. Without admitting guilt the iGlobalMedia management invited me to replay their games when they released a software update. In November 2001, I tried them again, playing at the Zantana casino under the new software. I played 323 hands of blackjack and had a loss of 16 units. This is well within the normal range; the probability of doing worse in a fair game is about 25%. So it seems to me they have are now playing fairly. Unfortunately the frequent broken connections are still a problem. I also never received a 10% bonus I was entitled to. This is the only software I know of that doesn't let you play for free, and I'm not surprised. Other casinos using this software include Starluck, Big Cat, Luckyland, Megaplay, and Club Chance. "

Long before the Wizard ever made allegations against Casino Bar, there were numerous postings on WinnerOnline by outraged players. If these messages were not allowed on forum #1, a lot more players would have been screwed over, by software specifically designed to CHEAT.

I just read your cover page article, and can see you are convinced that most software developers don't cheat. Perhaps you are right about this. But give others the ability to express thier OWN opinions. I personally think that a cheat mode can be very subtle. A loss of less than 2 SD's may not be statistically significant to you, but it is to me. After all noone can be reasoable sure sofware is cheating until the result is off by 3+ SD. Why have a main forum where players can only say positive things about casinos and not dare to utter a negative word.

If a casino, like Reef Club or CyberCroupier, retroactively changes its conditions, people have a right to express thier NEGATIVE opions. Why hide this on a forum noone reads?

The fact is, MAX, you are one-sided. You want to hear positive developments in the industry, but on the other hand, you want to coverup info that exposes the crooks of the industry.

After all, if too many newbies realize just how corrupt the industry is, they might think twice before depositing as much of thier hard earned money.

And Cryptologic stock might go down.

Dave R
(I'm one of the veteran members of WinnerOnline, and have been gambling online since 1997. Soon to be 6 years for me. If you want to be a control freak, Max, and censor me, I and many others will simply find another forum that is free.)

What is happening here is "growing pains". Things cannot go back to the way they were a year ago..

More and more people are coming online, trying out internet gambling (which I assume all those stockholders want them to do), and more players are finding their way to this board.

This board has become the "industry standard". You can bet that anything said about a particular casino is known by that casino management within hours, if not minutes of the time it is posted.

Most good casinos have someone who monitors this board. They keep their ears open to anything of importance that is happening by checking here for information.

Having said that, as the readership of this board grows, so will the "bad elements". All businesses go through this, other boards as well.

I do believe Max stated that he is not separating Best and Worst into separate forums, but sees the need to streamline this forum.

It is inevitable that things will change. But like always, people don't like change, even if it is for the better.

I just want those "complainers" to be brave enough to admit who they are, so they can be properly ridiculed by name; in the proper forum of course.

AS

------------------
TheAPage.com (http://www.theapage.com)

It doesn't matter who is stating what. This is now the "Best" board, and the trash can ("Right Answer") is the "Worst". Read it and you'll see.

I don't think that to shift the rogue casino warning threads into the trash can is "change for the better".

I also second Dave's post (on this occasion). Censorship isn't a good move.

Thought I'd let it stew awhile, was going to stay out LOL.

I am skimming too much - I didn't read too much into what Max said - but after looking at it again, the crux of the matter is that Max said "negative" stuff gets moved.

I disagree with this. What SHOULD be moved is IRRELEVANT stuff, NOT negative stuff.

Was that what you had in mind, Max?

------------------
Spearmaster
Got2Bet - Online Gambling News and Information (http://www.got2bet.com)

Administration of any board is not an easy task at the best of times. Especially one as big as this.

IMHO, times are a changing and this board has to change too. Nature of evolution. Fight it if you want.

99% of the posts on this thread I agree with, but that is irrelevant.

If you are going to introduce new forums, then they have to be descriptive. Right answer is not a real good choice?

Just as we are expected to post as topic titles relevant to the content....oh, ok, "This casino blows!" doesn't cut the cake.

Yep, you can please some of the people...just give it a little more thought and what you decide WILL be supported.
Besides Max, we all love you. You will not be sacked. Your even handedness in resolving past issues does not go unnoticed.
http://www.smilies-world.de/Smilies/Smilies_gross_1/smlkissb.gif


------------------
Webslave and Portal Owner

Originally posted by Got2Bet:

I disagree with this. What SHOULD be moved is IRRELEVANT stuff, NOT negative stuff.



I share this sentiment. And I think "The Right Answer" isn't a very good name for the section. Maybe "Casino Criticism" or "Criticism and Debate"

I don't think a sarcastic title helps the situation any.

"Maybe "Casino Criticism" or "Criticism and Debate".

Very idealistic. It would be nice to see it happen. Very nice indeed.



------------------
Webslave and Portal Owner

I think problem is not in the prder and the position of the posts.

THE problem is with posters losing control and posting useless posts, usually for certain emotional raesons.

SURE! there are not many posters that engage in such practics. Some of them did contribute to the board when they post in an inteligent way.

Possible solutions:
1) There is no solution that will not take time and energy. Someone should for a certain period of time devote AT LEAST 1/4 of a full time job for that project.

2) Deleting specific posts is very good, not taking away usefull info. Making the sometimes important thread more readable, and SHOWING to posters waht is considered to be bad posting practics.

3) Warning specific posters that if they continue their bad style they will be banned FOREVER. The only way people will get respect is when they will know that if they do it wrong they will pay a forever price. no 50% sale!.

4) Making the interface more userfriendly. i.e.
4.1) Having an headline for each reply in a post. And allowing each poster see the list of the headlines (like on Bet2Gamble.com)
4.2) posting who is the last poster of the thread.
4.3) posting who has most posts on a thread, or even something like "Mary 17 posts. Jetset 35 posts. caruso 12. Trader 21 posts".
Once a reader sees who is involved in a discussion he will know is probable worth.

(PS. such a massage should never be moved regardless the relevance to the speciufic board. Anyone disagrees?????.....).

5) The ideas in paragraph 4. may require some investment. But it is worth it. I'm pretty sure that will contribute very much to the usfulness of the board, and will calm down a lot of complaints. If I know which posters are involved in a thread I am expecting what I go to read.
Also remeber that The feature of having the last poster has already be employed on some boards (I think on Casino maister). A headline for each post in ThePrescription.
There should be several kinds of layout for the list of massages and each reader will be able to choose which layout he wants.

JEEEEEz, who gives a toss what the "Crypto shareholders" and "WOL advertisers" want??? ...

My boss for one. That makes it a pretty clear call if you ask me.

Regards,
Max.

My suggestion is to create a new board that will contain ALL massages from all the boards together ....

Since I've been asked to respond to this I will.

1) That's proven to be far more hassle than it would be worth. We tried that in the early days and were repeatedly asked to help the readers by splitting the different subjects up. That seemed pretty sane since that's what most message boards do.

2) We've observed that things tend to be far more lively and interesting if the posts stay more or less focused on a given topic area. We like "lively".

3) If you make a "one size fits all" forum you make it very difficult to draw the line between the posts that should stay and those that should be swept away. Like it or not that line does need to be drawn.

4) I personally don't like it because I'd rather go to the forums of specific interest than wade through a bunch of stuff that probably won't interest me much anyway.

Regards,
Max.

So much for posting any more messages regarding rigged casino on the MAIN forum.


Sorry, but where do you guys get this stuff from? Look at the topics in BEST AND WORST. Rigged this, cheaters that, etc, etc. The topics prove that what you've said is bunk.

Comments like the one quoted above are meant to do damage, inflate the poster's ego, and raise hell. May I suggest trying a constructive, perhaps even fact-based, comment instead?

Regards,
Max.

IMO this topic doesn't belong here and should be bumped.

FWIW, I agree. But it's also a bloody important topic that directly effects how this forum will run.

In due course I'll bump it over to THE SUGGESTION BOX or whatever. But for the time being I think it's worth keeping it here for convenience sake.

Regards,
Max.

Dave R said: The fact is, MAX, you are one-sided. You want to hear positive developments in the industry, but on the other hand, you want to coverup info that exposes the crooks of the industry.

The "fact" is that my record on these boards over the past three years proves that this statement is untrue and unfounded.

Sure I'd like to see more up-side stuff. Who wouldn't? But I've gone to the wall to protect the right of our user's to speak their minds, for or against, and I'll continue to do so. The use of the word "coverup" is very convenient and complete bollocks.

What I'm tired of is the petty sniping and pot-shots that clutter up BEST AND WORST. And the endless and unfounded "scam this, scam that" rants, and the "up yours!" mud-slinging and all the rest of that tripe.

And, fwiw, that's the stuff I'm going to either move out of BEST AND WORST or toss altogether. If you chose to see that as a "coverup" be my guest but I suggest you ask around a little before you make accusations that have no basis in fact.

Regards,
Max

I disagree with this. What SHOULD be moved is IRRELEVANT stuff, NOT negative stuff.

Was that what you had in mind, Max?

Bingo!

I used "negative" in the sense of bitchy, whiney, ranting, insult-slinging, ****-disturbing rubbish. Criticism and negativity are not the same thing in my books.

Regards,
Max.

A careful perusal of garbage and negative posts would expose culprits who 'attack' and a bit more evaluation would reveal those who 'defend' in the best way they know how.

A simple admonishment to the attackers would dramatically lessen their aggresiveness and, if that didn't work, implement the 3 strike rule.

Originally posted by max:
Since I've been asked to respond to this I will.

1) That's proven to be far more hassle than it would be worth. We tried that in the early days and were repeatedly asked to help the readers by splitting the different subjects up. That seemed pretty sane since that's what most message boards do.

2) We've observed that things tend to be far more lively and interesting if the posts stay more or less focused on a given topic area. We like "lively".

3) If you make a "one size fits all" forum you make it very difficult to draw the line between the posts that should stay and those that should be swept away. Like it or not that line does need to be drawn.

4) I personally don't like it because I'd rather go to the forums of specific interest than wade through a bunch of stuff that probably won't interest me much anyway.

Regards,
Max.

Max, I am sorry, it may be my fault, but it seems that my suggestion was not understood correctly. Read here and you will se that my suggestin is such that the problems to show are not related to MY suggestion.

I did not suggest to have a single forum for everything!

My suggestion was to ADD - not a forum - but an option to VIEW all threads of all forums together. The whole structure should remain as it is now. The only thing is to add a feature that if I want to see all forums together I do not need to jumt over but click over the link saying "read all boards at once". There is now a similar feature called "Click Here To View Today's Active Topics (all public forums)" over the main forums page. Now you should just:
1) Change it to have ALL topics not just "today's active".
2) Make its layout more practical and more like the standart forums layout. Show topic beginner, number of replies last updated, etc.

There should not be an option to post a new topic into the "one in all" forum. If one wants to post a new topic from there he will have to choose to which foryum the new topic should be related.

(edited for typo)

[This message has been edited by Tester (edited 09-14-2002).]

I will not argue with you, MAX, as I CANNOT
win an argument with the forum moderator.

So I am holding up my American Flag in one hand, and my white "Surrender" Flag in the other, and I agree to go along with your new forum rules and regulations.

We will have to disagree on the issues raised above. I've always had lots of respect for you, Max, and have always considered your articles to be a good read, since they are thoughtful and intelligent.

HOWEVER, YOU ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT THE MASSIVE CORRUPTION THAT EXISTS IN THIS INDUSTRY.

I am not calling you one-sided because of your 3 year history moderating this board.
I am calling you one-sided because of what you are doing right now -

The following messages disappeared from the BEST and WORST forum, and all of them I condider relevent:

1) Black Widow (1 thread only)- auditing accounts and taking forever to pay. How can you say this is not relevent to forum 1?
2) Reef Club - Retroactively changing bonus terms and refusing to pay. Eventually they did pay, when the OPA confronted them. But the issue clearly remains relavent.
3) CyberCroupier - Refusal to pay players that signed up for new accts and took free $10 from 4 or 5 of thier casinos. No rules were stated in T&C. Some players had winnings stolen, and were never repaid!!
4) Casino Bar rigged. - These are not UNFOUNDED allegations. The Wiz statistically tested this. Gamemaster says it is rigged also. Don't you think this belongs on forum 1? Newbies should know that Casino Bar is crooked. I am surprised you did not run a front page article about this.
5) IGlobalMedia rigged - Once again tested by Wiz and shown to be gaffed. (Back in 2000)
They claim the software is fixed, but in my opinion, once a cheat, always a cheat.
6) Clockmedia - Gamemaster ran tests on the bare all bj game, and found it to be rigged.
Jorge Alverez blamed the programmer, and the programmer was on Winneronline in forum 1 defending himself. The Wiz recently put his seal of approval on Clockmedia. So this is a debatable issue.
OPA still says avoid Clockmedia.
9) GamblingSoftware.com - OPA and Gamemaster claim the video poker is NOT RANDOM, since each licensee has the capability to set how often a royal flush comes in. In the example shown by OPA, it was one every MILLION hands. The frequencies of all other hands could be setermined by each operator.
Definately a crooked game.

So now do you still think what I am saying is bunk? Rigged casinos DO EXIST. Gambling and corruption have always gone hand and hand. Tell me why the messages listed above are UNFOUNDED or IRRELEVENT?

Originally posted by garyzimmer:
A careful perusal of garbage and negative posts would expose culprits who 'attack' and a bit more evaluation would reveal those who 'defend' in the best way they know how.

A simple admonishment to the attackers would dramatically lessen their aggresiveness and, if that didn't work, implement the 3 strike rule.



Max, take the 80/20 principle into mind. Only a very few posters has made damage to that board recently. Nobody can change things here with less then 50+ posts a month. There are not much soch posters. You do not always have to bare fast, but some guidlines in person may do the trick. Provide examples of posts that would bare them out if repeating that style.

Originally posted by Got2Bet:
What SHOULD be moved is IRRELEVANT stuff, NOT negative stuff. Was that what you had in mind, Max?

Originally posted by max:
Bingo!

I used "negative" in the sense of bitchy, whiney, ranting, insult-slinging, ****-disturbing rubbish. Criticism and negativity are not the same thing in my books.

Regards, Max.

Then PLEASE JUSTIFY your decision to move the Cyber Croupier thread and the Greef Club thread, my friend. You agree with G2B that the "irrelevant" material should be dumped in the trash can, and you have dumped CC and Greef in the trash can.

Are you saying these threads are "irrelevant"?

Are you saying that threads about casinos that cheat are "irrelevant"?

Are you saying, to use your woirds, these threads constitute "bitchy, whiney, ranting, insult-slinging, ****-disturbing rubbish."?

Please justify the removal of these threads. And "The WOL advertisers and the Crypto shareholders don't like them" is NOT adequate. If this is the only explanation then you might as well shut up shop, because the forum will be deserted within the year, and then what will the WOL advertisers, Crypto shareholders and your bosses think?

... HOWEVER, YOU ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT THE MASSIVE CORRUPTION THAT EXISTS IN THIS INDUSTRY. ... The following messages disappeared from the BEST and WORST forum, and all of them I condider relevent:

On the first count I think you've misread me somewhere. I don't disagree that there is corruption at all. I do disagree that everytime a player hits a bad streak in BJ, or whatever, is evidence of such corruption. Corruption is one of those things that's easy to claim and not so easy to prove. I do think such claims should be accompanied by as much evidence as possible, and hopefully as little adolescent behaviour as possible.

On the second count I'm going to have to repeat myself yet again: moving a thread is not deleting a thread, or making it "disappear". I move threads because of I think they belong somewhere else. Unlike some of our user's I have no problem with the multi-forum concept and consider it an improvement, not a retrograde or repressive step. I don't mind popping into a few different forums to see what's going on, here or at other sites I visit.

I should probably keep records but the fact is that I very rarely --as in a few times a year-- actually delete a thread. I'll bet you money that most or all of the threads you refer to have been moved to other forums. As to the specific reasons, well I suppose you could point me to the specific thread in question and I could look through it again to see what prompted my decision. But is that really the point? I think not.

I think the point you're trying to make is that I am bias toward ditching criticisms of some casinos for some unknown reason. That is what I object to for two reasons.

The first is that I've worked pretty hard over the years to defend our user's rights to openly criticise casinos and the software they use as long as they do so in a civil, informative manner. I've gone toe-to-toe with my boss, our money people, home office and advertisers over this at various times in the past and whether the user's here recognize it or not I am probably their biggest defender. A few of you recognize that but frankly most do not. No problem, but I get a little brissly when accusations of cover-ups and censorship get throw around at the drop of a hat.

The second reason is that I simply don't do what you and others are trying to accuse me of doing. In my opinion constructive criticism of online casinos and their software is at least 1/2 the reason BEST AND WORST exists. And looking back at the many messages that have appeared there over the years I can see that there is much evidence to speak to the success of BEST AND WORST in this regard.

So, what's the punchline here? I think it boils down to this. I have and will move threads if I think they belong in a different forum. That's written bold and bright in our Rules And Policies and I make no apology for it. That's the way we organize these boards and part of my paycheck depends of doing exactly that.

If you disagree with a particular thread being moved then feel free to question me on that, preferably in the thread itself or an email.

If you want to insinuate that by moving threads I am somehow suppressing important information I'd have to say you're mistaken, perhaps being a bit paranoid, and perhaps the problem would go away if you simply read the other forums.

Regards,
Max.

Then PLEASE JUSTIFY your decision to move the Cyber Croupier thread and the Greef Club thread ...

See the above post and get back to me if there are any further questions on the matter.

Regards,
Max.

Originally posted by Max:
If you want to insinuate that by moving threads I am somehow suppressing important information I'd have to say you're mistaken, perhaps being a bit paranoid, and perhaps the problem would go away if you simply read the other forums.

No insinuation, and no paranoia; by removing "worst" type threads elsewhere (NOT deleting them), leading the majority - accustomed to visiting "B & W" only, and getting their good info from "B & W" only - into believing that the actual, relevant "worst" type posts simply aren't there, you are effectively supressing information. The "I've simply removed them to another page" is very politically convenient.

I appreciate your work, Mr. D, and I also appreciate you're between a big rock and a hard place on this one, but I can't NOT call this in as effective censorship.

Are you not silencing me when you only permit me to speak in a room where practically noone can hear me? Heck, I can still speak, can't I?

... leading the majority - accustomed to visiting "B & W" only ...

Again, we have several forums, all equally accessible. The headings state where things belong and, if I'm doing my job, where they'll end up. If users decide to go for one forum and not the others then so be it.

In a way this is a bit silly. I want there to be multiple forums here because it helps me organize things and will, I believe, allow readers to focus their attentions. So how am I to achieve this? If I wait for readers to change their BEST AND WORST reading habits I grow old and tired. If I move the stuff to where I think it belongs and hope that the readers will follow I am accused of "effective censorship". It's the devil and the deep blue sea.

... you are effectively supressing information. The "I've simply removed them to another page" is very politically convenient.

Call it what you like but I've got a tsunami of posts to manage and I've decided to manage them by using a variety of forums. Read them or don't, it's your choice, as it is everyone else's choice.

I repeat: you're taking the position that I'm suppressing information and I'm taking that position that I'm organizing it.

You seem to think that any post that isn't all smilies will get bumped from the "is read" place to some dusty "isn't read" place. This is not the case as so amply demonstrated by the current contents of BEST AND WORST.

All these charges of "censorship" and "supression" and whatever are rubbish. Ask around. The veteran members here will tell you that it just ain't so.

Regards,
Max.

[This message has been edited by max (edited 09-15-2002).]

Originally posted by Bet2Gamble.com:
Max,
Here are my suggestions to restore the message board.
1) Post More: ...]

Just wanted to mention that I thought pretty highly of what you had to say here.

Regards,
Max.




[This message has been edited by max (edited 09-15-2002).]

Max, after giving your reply considerable thought, you may have partially won me over to your way of thinking. Everyone that loses a few too many hands of bj should not be complaining that the game is fixed and that they have been cheated. (Myself included!)

I see your point here.

Allegations like this are UNFOUNDED, and forum #1 may not be the most appropriate place for these "rumors" and possibly false accusations against a software developer. So on this issue, I have changed my mind, and I have decided to agree with you. In retrospect, I no longer have a problem with you moving my post "Stay Far Away From Microgaming" to the new forum. It should have been moved, since I did not yet release any statistics to prove my case.

However, I DO believe, in the case of Casino Bar, IGlobalMedia, and Clockmedia the evidence is overwhelming, since the OPA has blacklisted all 3 on the basis that at one time or another, the software was rigged to steal money from players. You can no longer say allegations like this are unfounded or irrelevent, and therefore, messages like these SHOULD, indeed, be allowed in
BEST AND WORST.

I hope I can appeal to you, Max, to reconsider your position, just as I have reconsidered mine. Please be open-minded enought to re-evaluate the suggestions posed by Jetset and Caruso.

Dave

Max, while you're lurking can I ask if its possible to fix the search function which doesn't work if you move a post.
While 90% of a moved post might be poo there can sometimes be a bit of useful info. in there that gets lost when you move a thread

Then I've got to look for it manually.
boo hoo hoo... :(

eek

Max,

Thanks man, I appreciate that. :) Let me know if there's anything else I can do.

C.M.
www.bet2gamble.com (http://www.bet2gamble.com)

[This message has been edited by Bet2Gamble.com (edited 09-15-2002).]

My suggestion is to create a new board that will contain ALL massages from all the boards together ....

A new naughty bits, members only thing? I am in. How much? Paypal?

------------------
Webslave and Portal Owner

[This message has been edited by deaning (edited 09-15-2002).]

This suggestion was not addressed, so I'll try it again....


A careful perusal of garbage and negative posts would expose culprits who 'attack' and a bit more evaluation would reveal those who 'defend' in the best way they know how.

A simple admonishment to the attackers would dramatically lessen their aggresiveness and, if that didn't work, implement the 3 strike rule.

Add to this movement of irrelevant threads and it would seem the problem would be solved. Too simplified?

This is kinda what I was talking about in regard to 'attack'....the bold words are mine to better point to inflammatory words or phrases by the attacker that his target will have a hard time ignoring:

Joey, Darlin', I don't know what the f*ck you're talking about - not for the first time.

If you cannot understand the difference between these two management decisions, you really are just too dumb to bother with - and I shan't be repeating my previous errors in this department.

Welcome back, Dame Nellie, Back From The Dead. Maybe you need to shake the dust from the tomb out of your head a little, however.

Why don't you all grow up?

You may say that this isn't relevant, Max, but it is exactly how 'shxt starts to fly'!

Credit the responsible 'I am the elite and you are a crumb' words above to a board veteran. I will name him in a tenth of a second if that is deemed appropriate. We all know who he is and his denigration of other posters starts a lot of the crap on this board.

Originally posted by Dave R:
However, I DO believe, in the case of Casino Bar, IGlobalMedia, and Clockmedia the evidence is overwhelming, since the OPA has blacklisted all 3 on the basis that at one time or another, the software was rigged to steal money from players.

CONCLUSIVELY proven cases of rigging and CONCLUSIVELY proven cases of THEFT - in short, all cases of conclusively proven wrongdoing - belong HERE. It would be nice if Max would bend a little here, but at the end of the day it's the Crypto shareholders' call, and I suppose there's not a lot he can do about it. Pity to flush WOL down the toilet, but c'est la vie.

We all know who he is and his denigration of other posters starts a lot of the crap on this board.

Yes. Hopefully the next banned poster. Current criteria and weight of opinion don't bode well.

but at the end of the day it's the Crypto shareholders' call, and I suppose there's not a lot he can do about it. Pity to flush WOL down the toilet, but c'est la vie.


Yep. Unfortunately.
------------------
Webslave and Portal Owner

[This message has been edited by deaning (edited 09-15-2002).]

A couple of thoughts:

*if a thread containing sound information about a rigged casino gets moved from B&W because of airborn excreta, a new thread can be started to replace it.

*Conversely, sound threads are subject to manipulation by excreta flingers deliberately attempting to get them moved.

I'm not sure that The Right Answer goes as unread as some think. Also, it's an interesting idea to sort threads in time--for readers of B&W, they read the thread when it was less vitrolic and its movement lets them know that the additional posts will probably not be of interest to them.

Quote:..Yes. Hopefully the next banned poster. Current criteria and weight of opinion don't bode well.

Sorry Deaning but joeyl would not want to see anyone banned.I'd rather argue the toss with him and done or let him have his way.

Arrogance/extreme confidence is fine by me,it's ignorance and/or indifference that twists my cap.

This is an obsession of mine; Max, could you issue an official ruling on your preferences concerning "portal" owner self-identification?

I personally very much dislike "portal" operators posting on marketing issues, casino integrity, and opinions concerning competitors without identifying themselves as such. It makes me feel suspicious.

I also don't completely understand the logic, as it would be good marketing to demonstrate to players how helpful and concerned an operator can be.

I understand that there is confusion about your preferences concerning links in text and sigs.

Here's an example of how it can be a problem. This one is more extreme than most.
http://www.winneronline.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000013.html

... could you issue an official ruling on your preferences concerning "portal" owner self-identification?

Not exactly an "official ruling" but I think it would be the right thing if they were up front about it. If they chose not to be I'd say we have to draw our own conclusions. Obviously not an ideal situation but trying to police and enforce this seems like entering into seriously troubled water if you ask me.

I understand that there is confusion about your preferences concerning links in text and sigs.[/B]

Ya, I'd have to say I frown on them, especially if they're there as advertisement or excessive self-promotion. A little is okay but I do mean "a little".

Regards,
Max.

Max, I am sorry, it may be my fault, but it seems that my suggestion was not understood correctly. ... My suggestion was to ADD - not a forum - but an option to VIEW all threads of all forums together.

Yup, looks like I read you wrong alright.

Okay, the View All New idea sounds reasonable enough. Unfortunately it's not going to happen with the current message board system. We're (still) planning to move to new software in the near future and our programming people have therefor suspended any further enhancements of the current system.

Feel free to remind me once the new system is in place.

Regards,
Max.

However, I DO believe, in the case of Casino Bar, IGlobalMedia, and Clockmedia the evidence is overwhelming ... messages like these SHOULD, indeed, be allowed in
BEST AND WORST.

I'm sure they do. Point me to the _specific_ threads and I'll clean my glasses and have a second look. If they're decent posts they probably do belong in BEST AND WORST.

Regards,
Max.

... can I ask if its possible to fix the search function which doesn't work if you move a post.

Hey, off topic buddy! ... :) Just kidding.

Ya, it's one of the side effects of our current message board system. I have to tell it to re-index every time I move a thread (or threads) and sometimes I forget. Sorry 'bout that.

Regards,
Max.

A simple admonishment to the attackers would dramatically lessen their aggresiveness and, if that didn't work, implement the 3 strike rule.

Add to this movement of irrelevant threads and it would seem the problem would be solved. Too simplified?

No, not too simplified at all. For what it's worth this has been my policy at various time in the past. Unfortunately it has a number of unpleasant repercussions.

Often when you warn an attacker you make them more aggressive, not less. They take it to the readership, typically complaining of "tyranny!" and "suppression!", and that starts a firestorm of those who support the attacker because they think they're charming or witty or they like their jokes VS those who see the need for me to do what I'm doing.

As to "movement of irrelevant threads", well isn't that exactly what I'm trying to do now, albeit in my own way? And looks at the dust that's kicked up!

FWIW it seems to me that there is no simple way to get done what needs to be done here. It's always a lot of work and whatever you do it seems, in my experience, to upset the readership. Much as we now see.

To put it another way, I think your suggestions are perfectly reasonable. However given the nature of public forums and our industry and what have you the reality is often that the implementation of "perfectly reasonable" becomes vastly more complicated, controversial, and burdensome than might at first be imagined.

Regards,
Max.

... Pity to flush WOL down the toilet, but c'est la vie.

Pardon my French but gimme a f---in' break! Are we trying to do something constructive here or are we trying to grandstand, make noise and sound oh-so clever? Comments like the above tell me nothing, contribute nothing and generally add to the negative, mud-slinging attitude that is exactly what I'm trying to get rid of here.

I don't know if you've been reading much lately but we're trying to _improve_ things here! I've been up late here trying to do exactly that. "Flush WOL down the toilet"! What a cheap shot that is, and highly disrespectly of me, my efforts, the efforts of our contributors and WOL in general.

Frankly caruso if that's the best you can do you're welcome to take it elsewhere. And if you think so little of what we have going here why are you here in the first place?

Regards,
Max

[This message has been edited by max (edited 09-15-2002).]

well, I agree with Max on the fact that the the forum seems to be a place to only share bad experiences up to the point that if someone talks good about a casino they call you spammer, i think all this is our fault because sadly we are better to talk bad things than to talk good things and the worst part is we are better to HEAR the bad things than the good things. I think this is our fault however, I think the solution here is to take understanding of what we were doing and start making some changes in the way we think, I believe we should also be able to express our selves about the bad casinos out there in this same forum, but yes, you are right, we need to understanding that this is best and worst and not a 'bad mouthing forum'

No, Max, that's not the "best I can do"; you choose to cut & paste ONE aggrieved comment and ask me if it's the "best I can do"? What about all my other comments in this thread? What about my comment that the Cyber Croupier and Grief Club threads, far from being "bithching and moaning" were accurate records of the situation and important sources of information, and that they have been relegated to the "bitching & moaning" thread? What about ALL my comments other than the one you chose to cut & paste? This was my "best" comment? Oh, I think not.

And this leading to the heavy-laden "your welcome to take your comments elsewhere"?

OK Max, you win. I now see exactly where Dave R was coming from in his "Crypto owns this board" remarks in another thread. I disagreed with him, naively.

Sorry Dave, you were right on.

Sorry Max, I'll be sweetness and light from now on. I'll "gurgle, gurgle, yuck, yuck, duuuuh casino X is SOOOOO cool" as required, and I apologise for any embarrassment I have caused you and the shareholders; I apologise also for the "toilet" comment - which was, as you correctly pointed out, my "best" contribution to this thread; maybe my "best" WOL contribution to date.

Regards to the bosses - they can stop sweating now.

Have a nice day.

... Sorry Max, I'll be sweetness and light from now on. I'll "gurgle, gurgle, yuck, yuck, duuuuh casino X is SOOOOO cool" as required ....

Ah, wonderful! Good to see that we're all being mature about this. So nice to have a meaningful conversation, discussing the things that matter to us, sharing in an open dialogue without cheap shots and adolescent posturing.

Yes caruso, some of your posts have been worthwhile and far above the "toilet" mark. Perhaps I did focus on a particularly bad moment of your's but you really hit below the belt with that one. And I don't think it was unfair of me to take offense and say so. Would it have been better to let it pass and let that kind of attitude become accepted here? I think not.

The bottom line is that I am trying to improve things here and started this thread so that it was out in the open and open for discussion. The "toilet" remark seemed pretty damn poor thanks for these efforts if you ask me.

Regards,
Max.

Quote:Ah, wonderful! Good to see that we're all being mature about this. So nice to have a meaningful conversation, discussing the things that matter to us, sharing in an open dialogue without cheap shots and adolescent posturing.

Caruso is not to be pulled up on this alone.There are quite a few members here who are easy to talk to when one agrees with them.Woe betide an opposite view..

Actually Caruso is nearly unique-due to the fact that he is not an industry insider and without naming names the most difficult people to disagree with within a normal conversation are those that are bound by the constraints of being a self professed "expert".

I can seriously empathize with you Max, on many levels.

Do what you need to do, and don't worry about it; we'll all get used to the new order.

The forum list page:-

<U>Best And Worst</U>

"Share your experiences gambling at online casinos, good and <Font Face="Arial" Size=5>BAD</Font Face="Arial"Size=5>"

Only other forum in view without scrolling (on my monitor, at least) is "Joker's Wild".

Scroll a bit:

The Right Answer

"Think you know what's wrong and how to fix it? Here's the place to get up on the box and let 'er rip!"

Wake up and smell the coffee, boys and girls.

I for one am willing to work with Max on this. I think we need to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I personally pledge to try to post things in the right spot and make statements that are based on personal experience not on what I have heard or feel.

I think there has been a lot of personal attacks on both sides of the fence lately. I will do my best to not take anything personally and keep the "mud slinging" to a minimum.

Max...thanks for providing such a great board!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee, boys and girls.

Enough with coping an attitude caruso! I've been clear, reasonable and am attempting to communicate openly with our users. You have given me nothing but surly bull**** in return. I don't like it, I don't want it, and I'm not going to stand for it.

As it happens I really can't see what your problem is. BEST AND WORST has changed only in that I'm culling the nasty crap out and either deleting it or moving it into THE RIGHT ANSWER, the new home for rants and diatribes. BEST AND WORST is still pretty much what it always was which you can see for yourself by having a look at the current subjects. You're trying to make it out like there's some big conspiracy thing happening and, as I've pointed out several times now, it just ain't so.

If you don't like something here, make your suggestion in THE SUGGESTION BOX, or respond in a _constructive_ manner in the appropriate thread. If you want to continue with the smart-assed remarks and sour attitude, hit the road! Am I making myself perfectly clear?

Max.

I've been extremely clear and constructive, Max. I've suggested that "Best & Worst" should be just that. I see no evidence that the NON mud-slinging, NON ranting, NON unproductive threads will have a place in THIS forum - by which, I mean in particular: both Cyber Croupier threads (gone to "RA"), Greef Club (gone to "RA") and the most recent Casino Bar post (gone to "RA").

You had an exchange with Got2Bet, which was basically a response to his comment "Is it the case that UNPRODUCTIVE negative threads ("Rigged! Mummy, mummy, mummy!") will be dumped in RA, and PRODUCTIVE "negative" threads ("Casino X has stolen my money - beware") will remain in B & W?" - your answer: "Exactly".

Cyber Croupier X 2, Greef Club and Casino Bar-most-recent are GONE from B & W.

New players will now be less unlikely to avoid these rogue casinos; these cheating / stealing casinos; they will see "Best & Worst"; most likely they will not even notice "RA" - and if they notice it, most likely they won't click on it, given both the description ("You can LET RIP in here!!", in other words "Come in here for a bun fight!"), and its place BENEATH Joker's Wild - which people rarely go to, at least in comparison to the amount they go to "B & W".

Therefore, as a direct result of pressure exerted on you from the Crypto shareholders and the WOL advertisers (not at all your fault, I might add) these rogues will start to flourish again. This is corrupt. If these rogues gain ONE EXTRA DOLLAR as a result of this, this is corrupt. I don't give a toss in hell what the Crypto shareholders and WOL advertisers want, but this is my priviledge. My sympathies lie with the cheated players - when they're cheated - and with the unfairly treated casinos (you know, "Casino X is rigged!!" when it blatantly ISN'T, "This promo sucks!!!" when it blatantly DOESN'T - that kind of thing) - when they're unfairly treated. Therefore, we have mutually exclusive positions, you might say.

Sorry, Max, seriously. I just gotta call it like I see it, and if the consequence of this is a involuntary "hike", then OK, go for it - but I'd appreciate an advisory Email beforehand. (see profile)

Thanks.

I have been here for a while and have seen numerous people stomp out the door in a huff.

I haven't missed a one of em.

SO as the saying goes if you REALLY don't like this place then Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya. :)

I've been extremely clear and constructive ...

I beg to differ. Contributions like your "toilet" comment in this thread and referring to the new forum as "The Trash Can" in http://www.winneronline.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005417.html do _not_ qualify as "constructive" in any way, shape or form.

As I've repeated time and time again the source of the problem seems to be that you've got the impression that I'm dumping threads because of corporate pressure. The following is an example:

Therefore, as a direct result of pressure exerted on you from the Crypto shareholders and the WOL advertisers (not at all your fault, I might add) these rogues will start to flourish again. This is corrupt.

Bull! There is no corruption and your repeated accusations of same are disruptive, unfair and unwelcome! Any threads I moved were moved for the same reasons I've stated over and over: they were somewhere they did not belong, for whatever reason.

If someone complains about casino XYZ is such a fashion that I deem it unfit for BEST AND WORST, that thread will be moved or deleted. The posting rules are clear and readily available and if a given post violates them I will respond according to said posting rules. Period! Not because of corporate pressure, not because of corruption, not for any conspiracy theory that may come to mind.

As I've stated elsewhere, point to the threads I moved and I'll have a second look. If, as rarely happens, the threads were deleted then they probably deserved it. But, and I repeat, it is highly unlikely they were deleted since I do so so rarely.

Let me try one more time:

There is no corruption.
There is no undue corporate pressure.
There is no conspiracy theory at work.
There _is_ an attempt to clean the filth out of BEST AND WORST.
If you disagree with my definition of "filth" let's discuss it like adults in THE SUGGESTION BOX.

My firm request to you is that we work within that context and move on.

If you continue with the "toilet" and "Trash Can" comments and throw tantrums like "I'll 'gurgle, gurgle, yuck, yuck, duuuuh casino X is SOOOOO cool' as required" you _will_ be asked to leave.

Any questions?

Regards,
Max.

Anyone who is even remotely aware of my presence knows that I am not a caruso fan, if there is such an animal.

I have to say that I absolutely do not understand this 'clash of wills' between Max and caruso.

Max is on the defensive! Read the posts! Why is he abandoning the trenches and retreating?

Max, in the past, over and over again, has chest poundingly stated his omnipotence! He has said that he would 'stand tall' against arrows, cannon balls, rocks shot from slings and any other onslaught! But the 'man' of small character, named after the man of the big voice, appears to intimidate!

Max, you have delivered your message! If the number of those evaluating your suggestions equalled two, you would have one dissenting. Give it a trial run!

You have identified the board 'malcontent' who, though brilliant and learned, will disrupt, corrupt, denigrate and continually hold others to a standard of greater height than he himself can reach!

This may not be understood by those outside the U.S., but your continuing exchange with caruso is as palatable as a fist fight between John Wayne and Wally Cox with Wally the eventual winner. Sc*#w him! Do it your way!

Max is on the defensive! Read the posts! Why is he abandoning the trenches and retreating? ....

Huh? 'Fraid that didn't come through very clearly 'zimmer. One more time, speak slowly, and in simple English please.

Max.

OK, Max - I'll shift this, as requested, off the main forum and into the Suggestion Box. I doubt anyone other than you and the contributing posters READ the Suggestion Box, but so be it.

I'll try!

I have discovered that board veterans, namely racetrack and caruso, when positioned to lose, disappear, vanish, become invisible, vaporize.....

I have respect for your willingness to explain your reasoning in making changes to the board. But, I think you'll agree, you can't win! If only two people were evaluating your changes, one would agree, one would disagree, chances are!

I for one, would like to see Best and Worst absolutely wide open! But that isn't going to happen.

You have absolute power! I can tell by your responses to posts, no one is going to change your mind!

By standing 'toe to toe' with caruso, instead of verbally above him, you give this venomous presence a stature that he doesn't deserve. This validates his license to continue his mission of denigration.

You have told him to 'adapt' or take a hike!

Enough said! Use his own weapon against him! Vaporize! You are the power!

.... I think you'll agree, you can't win! If only two people were evaluating your changes, one would agree, one would disagree, chances are!

Ah, much better. Thank you.

Max.

OK, Max - I'll shift this, as requested, off the main forum and into the Suggestion Box. ....[/B]

Thank you caruso. I look forward to discussing your suggestions. And I think I can assure you that if you'll meet me half way on this we'll both get most of what we want.

Regards,
Max.